Hi Folks,
I have noticed that the tuners on my L-05MT are less than accurate. I sometimes have to turn them for quite a bit before they tighten the string. Also, the high "E" tends to drop in pitch. This is getting to be quite annoying as I change tunings enough onstage and it is time consuming. Is this standard behavior for the factory tuners? I have only had the guitar for 2 and 1/2 months and they feel some what worn out.
Michael
Hey
I've noticed the same thing on my L03R. I might have to turn a 1/4 before anything seems to happen and I always have to retune each night.
chris
I think the stock tuners on Larrivees are Pings. They aren't premium tuners by any stretch. However, I had one tuner bind on me and asked Brian T. about it. He sent me a new tuner the very next day!
Sorry.. I just edited this post because I posted the wrong tuners from Gotoh. They are Gotoh 510s and are drop-in replacements. They are about $75 a set from Stewmac.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead/1/Gotoh_510_Guitar_Full-size_Guitar_Machines/Pictures.html#details
QuoteI have noticed that the tuners on my L-05MT are less than accurate. I sometimes have to turn them for quite a bit before they tighten the string.
This may be a case of not being familiar with higher ratio tuners. I notice a big difference between a 14:1 ratio tuner and a 18:1 ratio like on new Larrivees.
Larger ratios will take more turning of knob to adjust the tension of the string. This is a good thing as it makes for more accurate tunings. I like the tuners on my Larrivees compared to the tuners on my Martins, here again it's a ratio thing.
Steve :GRN>
Quote from: heartwood on January 05, 2006, 10:14:23 PM
Hi Folks,
I have noticed that the tuners on my L-05MT are less than accurate. I sometimes have to turn them for quite a bit before they tighten the string. Also, the high "E" tends to drop in pitch. This is getting to be quite annoying as I change tunings enough onstage and it is time consuming. Is this standard behavior for the factory tuners? I have only had the guitar for 2 and 1/2 months and they feel some what worn out.
Michael
Michael. I find this from time to time on new Guitars not just Larrivee. The tuners are normaly not the issue but a string sticking in the nut. In a easy case a bit of lead from the tip of a pencile may provide some lub to fix the problem. When I get this I have the skills and tools to open up the nut slot a bit to free up the string. If you have a repair shop you can get to you may want to try that before replacing the tuners. I have found the Larrivee tuners to be very good in quality.
Good Luck.
Sometimes how you wrap the string around the post can affect tuning, but it would seem that a quarter turn with nothing happening is beyond that explanation.
E. Shoaf
not to be unkind in any way to larrivee, but i think they could do a lot better in the area of tuning machines.
i just dont understand why anyone would go to the troulbe of choosing superior wood to build their instrument, use all the latest technology available to make the best guitar, etc. -- then skim on tuning machines?
i couldnt believe how bad the pings on my larrivee performed. a friend of mine actually got rid of his larrivee due to the pings. he knew he could have changed them for little money, but he said "for the money i paid, it should be able to stay in tune for more than one song!" i think he had a great point. just bums me out that he lost out on a great guitar due to something so simple as tuning machines...and that larrivee lost a player.
im sure larrivee has their reasons for using ping, passing on the savings to the consumer is probably number one on that list, but im sure it wouldnt cost that much more to use grovers, gotohs, or something of better quality. i know i would have rathered paid a few more dollars for the guitar than have to change my tuners (like i did).
a guitar that wont hold tune is like having a cadillac with flat tires.
Hopefully not implying anyone is a novice, but maybe the problem is in the wrap at the post; where the new string needs to get taut around the post before anything happens tuning-wise...? Or as Trinity Jim said, also sticking at the nut. And yes, the 18:1 tuners do take some twists to get results--but that allows for more accuracy also.
My custom Larrivee LS has stock tuners, and they have never given me a lick of problem, my sweet little guitar holds a tune all night and sometimes flies cross country without losing tuning. On one of my other guitars, when I once strung it with a whole wrap instead of a half wrap before threading the string through the post, it did tend to not resopond, due, I assumed, to the tension and stretch going on in the extra wrap. I no guitar technition, but it sure fixed the problem when I restrung.
My stock tuners on my favorite Larrivee seen solid and have no play...but I have never really paid much attention to them. :rolleyes:
I had an OM-03R and never had a problem with the stock tuners. I now have an L-03 and have not had a problem.
Are the problems that people are talking about something that were present when they got the guitars or did the problems develop over time?
Jim
I have 3 Larrivees. The tuning machines on the D and OM seem fine. I have had problems with one tuning machine on the L since the beginning. It won't stay tuned and it has never sounded just right. I have be re-stringing guitars for 40 plus years so I don't think the way I'm winding the string around the tuner post is a problem. A luthier friend of mine suggested that Grover Rotomatics might drop right in. Any thoughts or ideas on the Rotmatics??? I love the L-03R but the tuning problem does get a little annoying.
charliep
not sure about grovers, but any gotoh will drop right in. fwiw, gotoh makes some really nice tuners for not much money. lots of folks seem to think only the 510s will do the trick, but the plain jane ones are nice as well.
my .02
Tuners on my D-09 are stock. Like Jim pointed out, the only tuning problem I've ever had was with a string that was tending to bind at the nutslot. With my stock tuners, I can frequently go for a week and not need any retuning (no kidding). I know this because I usually check the tuning with my Intellitouch every time I sit down to play.
The "plain Jane" Grotohs are very reasonable upgrade to the stock Pings IMHO. I'm planning on doing that IF I have any more difficulty with my Pings.
Quote from: drathbun on January 06, 2006, 02:19:01 PM
The "plain Jane" Grotohs are very reasonable upgrade to the stock Pings IMHO. I'm planning on doing that IF I have any more difficulty with my Pings.
thats what i did to mine. scored mine off ebay for just over $30.
Thanks for all the replies. It looks like there are experiences on both sides with more positive than negative. This suggests to me the possiblity that just a few "less than perfect tuners" made it onto some instruments. No manufacturing process is without flawed product.
No offense taken as to my ability to wrap a post properly. This is good insight, but I have been stringing guitars successfully for a very long time. And because of "acid hands", I have strung more than most... with the exception of guitar techs. :WNK> So, I don't think this is the problem.
Also, in my experience, a string binding at the nut will grab and release. You can hear it instantly in the pitch and sometimes even at the nut, when it is extreme. In these cases, nothing happens and then all of a sudden the string releases. So, I don't think it is this either. Although this a good suggestion and would have been accurate for some guitars I have owned.
This is a problem I noticed from the beggining and just seems to have gotten worse. I have a D-03R that responds normally. So, it isn't unlikely or terrible that I may have gotten some sub-quality tuners...they aren't all bad! I will write Larrivvee and see how they feel about the possibility of 2 bad tuners on one guitar. Thanks again for all the suggestions and for sharing personal experinece.
Michael
I replaced the Ping's on my new OM19 within a week.. they would not stay in tune no how, no way....
went to Grover Stay-Tites - noticeably lighter weight + olde timey look, as well as staying in tune!
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/headstock_front.jpg)
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/headstock_back.jpg)
worth it to me, but not a straight drop-in.. need conversion bushings
Ta,
d.
Heartwood, sound as though you may have had the misfortune to get some loosey goosey tuners. Since you have "acid hands" have you tried Elixir strings? They do tend to fight the acid well. My guitar technician does not like them, but I have used them for years and love them.
Quote from: dermot on January 06, 2006, 09:56:40 PM
I replaced the Ping's on my new OM19 within a week.. they would not stay in tune no how, no way....
went to Grover Stay-Tites - noticeably lighter weight + olde timey look, as well as staying in tune!
worth it to me, but not a straight drop-in.. need conversion bushings
Ta,
d.
And they look fabulous too! However, you can't go back in this conversion. Do the Sta-tites actually cover ALL of the holes left by the Ping screws?
Drathbun;
yuppers... all the holes are covered... they don't excatly line up, so a matchstick in the existing hole before drilling a new hole a tiny hair off the existing one was the answer we used
i never would go back to that set of Ping's.... i'm sure that Larrivee would have delt with them if i had flagged it, but i rather like the Stay-Tities, i know by feel how much to turn to get to a drop D accuratly, and back... could'nt find that zone with the Pings ;-)))
Guess if i ever sell it (not to likely really) it would have to go to someone who likes openback tuners!
I see you have a 68' Yammy red label 150.. way cool.. i have a 65' that was my first good guitar, still have it, still play it to this day.
Ta,
d.
Sounds like Ping's quality control is somewhat inconsinisant?
Well Ping just isn't Grover, Schaller or Gotoh are they? You get what you pay for with Ping. I bought a set of Pings for my old Squire strat. They are better than that tin crap they put on those Korean strats. And the Pings on my L05 seem to be holding up okay. The the L05 is only a year old. I expect I'll be replacing them at some point.
Oh yeah... and I put a set of Pings on my old Yammie FG150. I bought that guitar for $80 on eBay. It had only five tuners, none of them matched, and it had home made bridge pins! It is a great old beater!
My Pings are working good, but just currious.
What other specific units out there would be a direct drop in replacement????
I have Ping's on all 3 of my guitars, and I've had to tighten the nut at the bottom of the post on all 3 guitars. No matter how much you humidify, occasionally the neck is going to swell or contract. You don't want to overtighten the nut, but it will loosen over time. Have all of you done this, and still had a problem? They're not the silkiest tuners by far, but once I've done this, I don't have a problem of the strings staying in tune in relation to each other.
Quote from: dermot on January 06, 2006, 09:56:40 PM
I replaced the Ping's on my new OM19 within a week.. they would not stay in tune no how, no way....
went to Grover Stay-Tites - noticeably lighter weight + olde timey look, as well as staying in tune!
worth it to me, but not a straight drop-in.. need conversion bushings
Did you take note of any tonal changes in the tone of the OM from before to after the change? Does it sound noticeably better - or worse?
The difference in weight (/mass) on the headstock changed/lightened by around 4 to 5 ounces PER TUNER for a total reduction of around 24 to 30 ounces. Thats 1.5 to 1.7 pounds lighter - a LOT on a 5 to 7 pound instrument. Theoretically this could make a significant difference in tone.
I have been trying to begin such a discussion but no one seems to note any changes in tone. Several folks who installed lighter tuners on Gibson acoustics have noted that the tone improves after such a lightening, PARTICULARLY when playing up the neck.
Anyone? Surely someone has discussed such before...
Quote from: Big Martin on January 07, 2006, 12:41:36 PM
The difference in weight (/mass) on the headstock changed/lightened by around 4 to 5 ounces PER TUNER for a total reduction of around 24 to 30 ounces. Thats 1.5 to 1.7 pounds lighter - a LOT on a 5 to 7 pound instrument. Theoretically this could make a significant difference in tone.
Someone is going to have to weight these things. There is no way I will believe that Gotohs are 4 to 5 ounces lighter than the Pings, per tuner. That is 1/4 pound and there is no way the Pings weigh that much.
Jim
Quote from: dermot on January 06, 2006, 09:56:40 PM
I replaced the Ping's on my new OM19 within a week.. they would not stay in tune no how, no way....
went to Grover Stay-Tites - noticeably lighter weight + olde timey look, as well as staying in tune!
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/headstock_back.jpg)
worth it to me, but not a straight drop-in.. need conversion bushings
Ta,
d.
Very, very nice!
Michael
Quote from: jwsamuel on January 07, 2006, 12:58:36 PM
Someone is going to have to weight these things. There is no way I will believe that Gotohs are 4 to 5 ounces lighter than the Pings, per tuner. That is 1/4 pound and there is no way the Pings weigh that much.
Jim
You are absolutely correct. The weight of the whole set is a difference of about 5 or 6 ounces - again, for THE WHOLE SET. I should have though a bit deeper before posting.
Here is Bryan Kimseys page about tuners listing weights:
http://www.bryankimsey.com/tuners/
He discusses the difference in tuner post height and the resulting difference in break angle ove the nut - generally saying a larger break angle over a shorter post being better for tone
Quote from: Cowgirlie on January 06, 2006, 10:11:34 PM
Heartwood,...Since you have "acid hands" have you tried Elixir strings?
Cowgirlie, Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, I do like Elixers, alot. At first they are a little fuzzy sounding on this guitar, but they soon lose that quality and settle in nicely. But I tend to play so much that there isn't really any savings for me. In fact, they tend to be more expensive because I wear them out with playing time and metal fatigue from using multiple tuinings. There are only so many optimum playing hours on any set of strings and I tend to wear them out as well as "kill" them with my chemistry.
I have just come to accept that in order to have the sustain that I enjoy, I have to change strings at the very least twice a week. For now, except for when recording, cheap strings are the best solution for me. I am waiting on a delivery of WebStrings @ $2.35 per set. I have another forum member to thank for pointing me in this direction.
Michael
Quote
Did you take note of any tonal changes in the tone of the OM from before to after the change? Does it sound noticeably better - or worse?
Theoretically this could make a significant difference in tone.
I have been trying to begin such a discussion but no one seems to note any changes in tone. Several folks who installed lighter tuners on Gibson acoustics have noted that the tone improves after such a lightening, PARTICULARLY when playing up the neck.
Anyone? Surely someone has discussed such before...
Heartwood;
As the OM was only a week old it's in a state of constant change (always seemingly for the better) and i am coming to grips with it's strengths - i could not really talk about more than the mechnical atributes of the Grover's
UMGF has discussed this at length in the past... the only times i have swapped tuners is for mechnical/functional reasons - my 32' Dobro has a set of 74 year old cheap crap tuners on it still - and they still work fine.. if the pings were close to functioning as those do... the Ping's would stilll be on the guitar
Anyhow.... back to tuners... can't testfy to sonic improvments as the OM is too new, no noticable diffrence on my Martin 12 fret D that i swaped to Schaler openbacks;
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/headstock.jpg)
Work well....look nice too...
ta,
d.
Quote from: dermot on January 07, 2006, 01:58:24 PM
Anyhow.... back to tuners... can't testfy to sonic improvments as the OM is too new, no noticable diffrence on my Martin 12 fret D that i swaped to Schaler openbacks;
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/guitars/headstock.jpg)
Work well....look nice too...
Arent you the one who has ordered the Custom D-15S's, one with sitka top/mahog b/s; and one with rosewood back sides?
Are you still liking those?
Big Martin;
Yea.. that's me ;-))
and yea i love the sitka/mahog one i have already... (picie of headstock above) the sitka/rosewood one arrives in Febuary.....
just was playng the 12 fretter, i also have it in CGDGAD was working on "Star of the County Down" in waltz time A/B'n with the OM19 with similar strings
the OM is looking like it will become my "standard tuning/lights" fingerstyle guitar... and the sustain of the 12 fretters is unbeatable in drop tunings where open strings are in play a bit more....
The customs were / are inexpensive & replaceable.... i got the first one so i could keep the old D18 safe at home.. ordered the second one when the first one blew my socks off...... and what has become almost redundant is my 54' D18.. the 12 fretter has more of everything.... except the strumming/flatpicking catagory.. and there's not much of that in my house really...... the OM is much more comfortable and handles everything but really digging in with a stiff pick.
they are priced well under the SD60 and D28VS.... if i had the option of a SD03 / SD03R tho i would have gone that way in a flash, and i dream of a SD19K at the price of my OM19.... dream, dream, dream..... bet i would replace those tuners as well tho;-))
ThnX for asking
d.
Quote from: dermot on January 07, 2006, 04:43:51 PM
Big Martin;
Yea.. that's me ;-))
and yea i love the sitka/mahog one i have already... (picie of headstock above) the sitka/rosewood one arrives in Febuary.....
So what custom items have you done?. See if I recall:
Base D-15S - usual bracing, low profile neck, rosewood fingerboard and bridge
Sitka top (any special grade or feature here?)
SW tortoise rosette
tortoise binding
rosewood headstock veneer
inlay at headstock
Did I miss anything? Did you consider anything different (ebony fretboard, etc?)
Big Martin;
QuoteBase D-15S - usual bracing, low profile neck, rosewood fingerboard and bridge
Sitka top (any special grade or feature here?)
SW tortoise rosette
tortoise binding
rosewood headstock veneer
inlay at headstock
you pretty much got it.. i was looking for a cost effective 12 fret D as my back-up, and Larrivee were not interested in building a custom SD03.. (that really was my first choice) so off to Martin i went.....
Base D-15S - usual bracing, low profile neck, rosewood fingerboard and bridge
- the most cost effective 12 fret D out there
Sitka top (any special grade or feature here?)
- i asked for re-claimed wood ala SWD series.. got a nicely bearclawed top, no further upcharge for that.. just being a tree hugging old hippie i guess...
SW tortoise rosette
tortoise binding
- binding top & bottom, SWD rosette
rosewood headstock veneer
- that's standard D15S there.. was contemplating changing it (to Koa) when adding the inlay, but decided not to bother
inlay at headstock
- the inlay & tuners i added after i decided that it was a life time keeper, glossed it up and swapped saddles for a while before going back to the stock plastic one, added a grevin PG, and compensated nut.....
I guess we have completly hi-jacked the thread about tuners now eh? sorry for the hi-jack!
my luck at NAMM they announce a SD03R ;-))))
or a SD19K.....
Ta,
d.
Yeah, you guys have hijacked the thread and I forgive you for that. But I am holding a bit of a grudge for the drool on the tops of my boots. :WNK> What a great headstock! And the description of the custom guitars sent me into a fetal postion.
I have a friend who has a Collings slope D, 12 fret, slotted headstock (sitka spruce/rosewood). He said that it is the loudest guitar he has ever owned. He keeps forgetting to bring it over and keeps bringing other wonderful guitars. He has a knack for finding really nice instruments. He might be saving it for last to prove his point. Or, maybe it's because he almost committed to selling it to me and then changed his mind. He might just be sparing me the torture...for which Iam greatful.
Michael
My Pings are fine - but I hear lots of very good things about the Gotoh 510s. I'm not sure I like the look of the 510s though - I think Dermot's replacements looks just fantastic.
Cheers
Mike
Quote from: drathbun on January 05, 2006, 10:52:25 PM
I think the stock tuners on Larrivees are Pings. They aren't premium tuners by any stretch. However, I had one tuner bind on me and asked Brian T. about it. He sent me a new tuner the very next day!
Sorry.. I just edited this post because I posted the wrong tuners from Gotoh. They are Gotoh 510s and are drop-in replacements. They are about $75 a set from Stewmac.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead/1/Gotoh_510_Guitar_Full-size_Guitar_Machines/Pictures.html#details
Hi,
I'm new to the forum, but this topic interested me. Do you know if the stock tuners were always Ping? I have a '98 D-10 (Brazilian) and I was thinking of replacing the tuners. I don't really have a performance complaint, but I think the look of the guitar could be improved. On a gorgeous Brazilian headstock with pearl and abalone inlay I have...gold tuners??? For my taste, the guitar would look much better with a silver tuner, or with a pearl-type button, or with a dark-grain wood button.
When you say Gotoh 510 is a drop in replacement, do you mean the the screw holes will line up too? I'm very hesitant to do any drilling :SHK>.
Cheers,
Blair
Looking at the specs for the 510's they should be drop-in replacements down to the placement of the screwholes. I have not done this replacement however so it would be best to hear from someone who has had first-hand experience.
Doug
Hi Acoustickler and welcome to the forum!
Way back when...I believe Larrivee's came equipped with Schaller tuning machines. I'm not exactly sure when and for how long. But if your D-10 does indeed have the pings, then Gotoh 510's will indeed be a direct drop-in replacement with all the holes lining up.
Here are some before and after photos of my ping to 510 swap:
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/dark_paniel/p.jpg)(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/dark_paniel/gotoh.jpg)
btw, the Gotoh 510's really are as nice as they all say they are. The Larrivee Ping's weren't horrible, but they still don't come close to the accuracy of the 510's.
-dan
Quote from: dark paniel on January 13, 2006, 04:13:42 PM
Hi Acoustickler and welcome to the forum!
Way back when...I believe Larrivee's came equipped with Schaller tuning machines. I'm not exactly sure when and for how long. But if your D-10 does indeed have the pings, then Gotoh 510's will indeed be a direct drop-in replacement with all the holes lining up.
Here are some before and after photos of my ping to 510 swap:
Hey Dan,
Thanks for the welcome and the info on the 510s. Nice job on your conversion!
Now I just have to figure out if my existing tuners are the Pings or the Schallers. :huh:
Cheers,
Blair.
Just post a picture! (if you can that is)
-dan
QuoteHere are some before and after photos of my ping to 510 swap:
Thanks for the photos. . . very helpful. I got the pings for sure.
Aha! I think I found the answer to my question. The exact model guitar I have was in the sold gallery at Archtop.com. They say the original gold tuners were Schaller 16X1.
Here is a link with some pics too:
http://www.archtop.com/ac_02D10B.html
Cheers,
Blair.
Quote from: Acoustickler on January 13, 2006, 04:34:01 PM
Hey Dan,
Thanks for the welcome and the info on the 510s. Nice job on your conversion!
Now I just have to figure out if my existing tuners are the Pings or the Schallers. :huh:
Cheers,
Blair.
Matthew Larrivee on 6/26/03:
All current Larrivee Guitars - Including the -50 and -60 series use ping tuners. This has been the way for at least three years now. So, if your guitar is a year 2000 or later, its got Pings
So, if your guitar is a year 2000 or later, its got Pings
Quote
Hey Randy,
It is the '98 D-10"B", so I'm pretty sure now I got the gold Schallers.
(BTW, that's a heckuva Larrivee collection you've got. Is there any one that stands out as your favorite player?)
Cheers,
Blair.
Quote
Hey Randy,
It is the '98 D-10"B", so I'm pretty sure now I got the gold Schallers.
(BTW, that's a heckuva Larrivee collection you've got. Is there any one that stands out as your favorite player?)
Cheers,
Blair.
I used to think the D-09b was my favorite. But I'm to the point where I can't really call out one as being a favorite. The D-10b is certainly high on my list from a tone point of view and because it was custom built for me; likewise the Forum Guitar is high on my list with the added mojo of the forum comradery. But, in general, which ever one I'm playing. I don't play the parlors very much, and if I needed to start thinning things out, they would likely go first.
Quote from: Randy_R on January 13, 2006, 08:38:56 PM
I used to think the D-09b was my favorite. But I'm to the point where I can't really call out one as being a favorite. The D-10b is certainly high on my list from a tone point of view and because it was custom built for me; likewise the Forum Guitar is high on my list with the added mojo of the forum comradery.
Cool. Your D-10b looks quite special and beautiful. I don't know about the Forum Guitar, but assume it was an initiative related to this forum? I see it is all mahog, which I like too (my other dread is a Martin D-17 all Mahog).
Cheers,
Blair.
Quote from: Acoustickler on January 13, 2006, 11:25:10 PM
I don't know about the Forum Guitar, but assume it was an initiative related to this forum? I see it is all mahog, which I like too (my other dread is a Martin D-17 all Mahog).
Cheers,
Blair.
Yes, the Forum Guitar was a special group of instruments made for forum members after about a year worth of debate about what we wanted at a reasonable cost point. The final configuration and logistics was negotiated for us by Jason at Notable Guitars. The Forum Guitar is a 12-fret neck OM-03 with either sitka or mahogany tops (both were available) and the upgrades of bone saddle, abalone rosette, and MOP logo. The one I have sings like the angels.