Hi, I'm brand new here, but not new to my Larivee. It has a tuning problem that's driving me nuts right now. I'll tune it up with a Peterson strobe tuner (very accurate) straight tuning, sweetened tunings, and they all come out with the B string being sharp when playing in the open A position. Also the E string is sharp when playing the open D position. This discrepancy holds true all the way up the neck. I'll mention again it is a D70. By the way an open E chord, and the "E" position sounds great all up and down the neck.
My wife bought the guitar for me in Des Moines, Iowa in 1995. It's still beautiful with an eagle on the headstock. Any ideas?
Also does anyone happen to know what the neck radius would have been in the mid 90's?
Thanks for your help
Tim
If only the open string is off, the issue is at the nut. You tune it to the open string and the tuning worsens as you go up the neck, you'd want a custom compensated saddle.
Lastly, if there's just a note here or there then it can be individual frets that are high or low.
Hi Tim-
Welcome to the Larrivee forum.
I cannot confirm this but I believe that based upon the age of your guitar that it was built with a compound radius [17-21].
Thanks for the info. All the open strings tune up fine. An open E sounds great. But an open A chord will find the B string sharp. An open D chord will find the E string sharp. In both cases these are fretted notes. So I should take it to a luthier I'm thinking. I was considering putting an Earvana nut on it to correct the problem, but now I'm not so sure.
A nut is unlikely to correct the problem, based on what you're describing. The two spots you mention are the 2nd fret, correct? It's possible for a single fret to lift, or for it to wear on commonly played spots. A tech should be able to find the issue quickly.
Good point, Bowie. With a guitar that old, are there some divots worn into the first few frets after years of playing the standard cowboy chords?
Quote from: StringPicker6 on September 04, 2024, 06:15:42 AMGood point, Bowie. With a guitar that old, are there some divots worn into the first few frets after years of playing the standard cowboy chords?
That's a great point. I can at least check that out myself. I do play a lot and of course those frets get a lot of use. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it. The more I think about this problem the more I think you guys are right. When the guitar was newer I didn't have this problem. Lately in the studio it just drives me nuts!!
Tim
Also I should add that for instance if you're playing something like Black Bird. You go up the neck fret the A string at the 10th fret, pluck the open G, and fret the B string at the 12th fret. That B at the 12th fret is so sharp it curls your hair!
Tim, do the intonation check.
You know, fret each string at the 12th and compare to the harmonic.
How's the action at the 12th fret?
(Can you measure from the top of the fret to the string?)
Do that on the 1st and the 6th string.
How much saddle have you got above the bridge?
Can you post a picture of that?
Without having in hand find a good tech and have it gone over.If it hasn't been for a visit to a tech it a long time,its time.If you like check the frets for dibits an flat fret tops.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 04, 2024, 06:38:26 PMTim, do the intonation check.
You know, fret each string at the 12th and compare to the harmonic.
How's the action at the 12th fret?
(Can you measure from the top of the fret to the string?)
Do that on the 1st and the 6th string.
How much saddle have you got above the bridge?
Can you post a picture of that?
I will do that when I get home today, thanks to all for your help!
Quote from: unclrob on September 04, 2024, 11:32:04 PMWithout having in hand find a good tech and have it gone over.If it hasn't been for a visit to a tech it a long time,its time.If you like check the frets for dibits an flat fret tops.
Right. That's where this will end up.
Well the intonation is bad!
Fretted E is sharp
Fretted B is sharp
Fretted G is ok ....not terrible
Fretted D is sharp
Fretted A is sharp
Fretted E is very sharp
These are all comparisons to the harmonic on the 12th fret.
The action is 1.50 millimeters for 1st and 6th string at the 12th fret.I took a picture of the bridge to show the saddle but I can't figure out how to get it on here😬. As far as how the action feels I feel like it could be better or lower but I don't want the buzzing. I've cheaper guitars that play or feel better.If it really does have a 17-21 radius that seems very flat!
I have a Strat with a compound neck that is 10 to 16 . I thought that was flat.
I should have mentioned that the frets are all dented pretty heavily. The Strat neck I was talking about was a Warmouth neck with stainless steel frets, not a mark after years of playing. A PRS DGT is showing wear after 4 years. Do they ever put stainless steel on an acoustic?
Quote from: Tim Chipman on September 05, 2024, 02:42:24 PMI should have mentioned that the frets are all dented pretty heavily. The Strat neck I was talking about was a Warmouth neck with stainless steel frets, not a mark after years of playing. A PRS DGT is showing wear after 4 years. Do they ever put stainless steel on an acoustic?
Yes they do a few of the members have stainless frets
Hey Tim-
Electric guitar necks will always have a smaller radius than a steel string acoustic guitar. Just as nylon stringed, classical guitars will be flat or nearly flat compared to steel string acoustics.
Yes, I have a couple of guitars with stainless steel frets, however most acoustics' frets are a nickel steel alloy which are easier to file in order to lever, crown and dress.
Stainless are more common on electric guitars.
The action you posted is decimal inches; not mm which is well within the good range (around 4mm).
As unclrob indicated in an earlier post your guitar is overdue for a trip to a tech for a proper setup and fretwork.
As to posting images here...
You can post images from both PCs and Macs. Not much difference between the two.
NOTE: Click on REPLY.
If you simply begin typing in the empty post space at the bottom it defaults to QUICK REPLY. This can make adding images tricky.
So instead, click on REPLY.
Then you'll see "Click or drag files here to attach them" at the bottom. (You won't see this option if you're in QUICK REPLY mode.)
.jpgs and .gifs only.
Quote from: Queequeg on September 06, 2024, 07:51:44 AMHey Tim-
Electric guitar necks will always have a smaller radius than a steel string acoustic guitar. Just as nylon stringed, classical guitars will be flat or nearly flat compared to steel string acoustics.
Yes, I have a couple of guitars with stainless steel frets, however most acoustics' frets are a nickel steel alloy which are easier to file in order to lever, crown and dress.
Stainless are more common on electric guitars.
The action you posted is decimal inches; not mm which is well within the good range (around 4mm).
As unclrob indicated in an earlier post your guitar is overdue for a trip to a tech for a proper setup and fretwork.
As to posting images here...
You can post images from both PCs and Macs. Not much difference between the two.
NOTE: Click on REPLY.
If you simply begin typing in the empty post space at the bottom it defaults to QUICK REPLY. This can make adding images tricky.
So instead, click on REPLY.
Then you'll see "Click or drag files here to attach them" at the bottom. (You won't see this option if you're in QUICK REPLY mode.)
.jpgs and .gifs only.
I will give that a try. Thanks for all the information.
here's the shot of the bridge and saddle
Perhaps my eyes deceive me, but I'm seeing 3 points of concern;
-No compensation = your intonation will be off.
-Poor break angle causes some strings to lie somewhat flat, which can be a source of buzzing and odd harmonics.
-Saddle has become slotted from string wear, which will exacerbate my 2nd point^.
I feel that a new, proper saddle could do wonders.
Quote from: B0WIE on September 06, 2024, 05:44:21 PMPerhaps my eyes deceive me, but I'm seeing 3 points of concern;
-No compensation = your intonation will be off.
-Poor break angle causes some strings to lie somewhat flat, which can be a source of buzzing and odd harmonics.
-Saddle has become slotted from string wear, which will exacerbate my 2nd point^.
I feel that a new, proper saddle could do wonders.
Good eye, Bowie. :thumb
Haven't seen the frets but dressing and/or crowning and a new compensated saddle will likely restore this to a fine guitar as it should be.
Oh boy! I'm really glad I joined this forum. I've been playing for 60 years and it's amazing how much I don't know about guitars. Some of you sound like luthiers?
I'm in northern Iowa and there are a few techs in the state and I'll get this information to one or maybe two of them and get the work done.
Please accept my sincere thanks for your help.
Quote from: Tim Chipman on September 06, 2024, 06:38:36 PMOh boy! I'm really glad I joined this forum. I've been playing for 60 years and it's amazing how much I don't know about guitars. Some of you sound like luthiers?
I'm in northern Iowa and there are a few techs in the state and I'll get this information to one or maybe two of them and get the work done.
Please accept my sincere thanks for your help.
Yeah, joining this forum was totally
free and now it's going to cost you probably $150 or so to fix your guitar.
:humour:
Unclrob and Bowie comprise the braintrust here, and there's other smart folks too with a wealth of experience.
I don't include myself among those.
I'm just old and have owned a lot of different guitars over the years and been around this forum for a long time.
I find the amount of guitar-knowledge in this thread pretty impressive! I've been playing 30+ years and have never fully understood many of the terms tossed around (e.g. - intonation, neck relief, etc). I mean, I know what it is *supposed* to mean and I get what's being referenced, but I don't fully understand the inner workings of such things.
This thread reminds me of something about my own guitar, though.
I've had it over 20 years and from day one, when I do an old-school D chord, something just sounds just a little off. Nothing major, but just some little shimmering, warbling sound that lets me know something isn't entirely in tune.
The strings are all in perfect tune when open, but when I press down that D chord, the B strings is just a tad out of whack. Sometimes I'll retune with the strings pressed down making the D chord, and it will be better: but it's super rare for me to get it perfect.
I showed it to the luthier and he thought I was imagining it. "It's in tune, man! Play guitar!" But I can hear that it's slightly out. At this point, and esp all these years later, I've just learned to deal with it, and it's even caused me to slightly alter the way I play a D chord in a song. But there are times when I'll pick up another guitar, and the first thing I'll do is play a reg D chord. When I hear it ring out perfectly, it always makes me a bit envious!
:wave
All said, I hope the OP gets this sorted out. It can be quite maddening!
Quote from: Silence Dogood on September 07, 2024, 08:44:28 AMI find the amount of guitar-knowledge in this thread pretty impressive! I've been playing 30+ years and have never fully understood many of the terms tossed around (e.g. - intonation, neck relief, etc). I mean, I know what it is *supposed* to mean and I get what's being referenced, but I don't fully understand the inner workings of such things.
This thread reminds me of something about my own guitar, though.
I've had it over 20 years and from day one, when I do an old-school D chord, something just sounds just a little off. Nothing major, but just some little shimmering, warbling sound that lets me know something isn't entirely in tune.
The strings are all in perfect tune when open, but when I press down that D chord, the B strings is just a tad out of whack. Sometimes I'll retune with the strings pressed down making the D chord, and it will be better: but it's super rare for me to get it perfect.
I showed it to the luthier and he thought I was imagining it. "It's in tune, man! Play guitar!" But I can hear that it's slightly out. At this point, and esp all these years later, I've just learned to deal with it, and it's even caused me to slightly alter the way I play a D chord in a song. But there are times when I'll pick up another guitar, and the first thing I'll do is play a reg D chord. When I hear it ring out perfectly, it always makes me a bit envious!
:wave
All said, I hope the OP gets this sorted out. It can be quite maddening!
Tune to the 2nd fret and see if the 1, 2, 3, 4 positions on that string are all in tune. Often, those will all be in-tune but the open will be off. This can be fixed at the nut. The nut is usually slightly off from the factory and is largely overlooked by techs (which is why I started learning about repair 25 years ago). The common thought is that you set the nut for comfort but then you've doomed the guitar to never intonate correctly between the open and fretted notes.
If you tune to the 2nd fret and everything else is off, then it's probably fret wear in that position. That spot sees a lot of use from various chords so 2nd on the B is one of the first to go.
Quote from: B0WIE on September 07, 2024, 05:59:52 PMTune to the 2nd fret and see if the 1, 2, 3, 4 positions on that string are all in tune. Often, those will all be in-tune but the open will be off. This can be fixed at the nut. The nut is usually slightly off from the factory and is largely overlooked by techs (which is why I started learning about repair 25 years ago). The common thought is that you set the nut for comfort but then you've doomed the guitar to never intonate correctly between the open and fretted notes.
If you tune to the 2nd fret and everything else is off, then it's probably fret wear in that position. That spot sees a lot of use from various chords so 2nd on the B is one of the first to go.
Great info! I'll give this a try soon. (I've been in mandolin mode a lot and my Larrivee is getting sorely neglected.) This same tech changed my frets a few years ago. He chided me and told me my frets should've lasted much longer, possibly a lifetime, but I play so hard I wore them down in about ten years of casual use.
:guitar
Here's a picture of the Music Nomad guage I use for setting up my guitars. I bought the kit, along with the neck brace to rest the guitar on and the mat to protect the body. I got it when I blocked the tremelo on the PRS DGT that I bought. Since then I've used the kit for setting up all my stuff, except this Larivee. Not that it matters but it looks like "millimeters" is what they're saying the 1.50 indicates. According to this if my action was 4mm at the 12th fret it would be hard to play :smile:
I really appreciate the wisdom you all have shown, I've learned a lot in very short period of time. I contacted a luthier in Coralville Iowa and he's going to take a look. I sent him quotes from this thread to at least get him on the right track!
Quote from: Tim Chipman on September 08, 2024, 10:44:34 AMHere's a picture of the Music Nomad guage I use for setting up my guitars. I bought the kit, along with the neck brace to rest the guitar on and the mat to protect the body. I got it when I blocked the tremelo on the PRS DGT that I bought. Since then I've used the kit for setting up all my stuff, except this Larivee. Not that it matters but it looks like "millimeters" is what they're saying the 1.50 indicates. According to this if my action was 4mm at the 12th fret it would be hard to play :smile:
I really appreciate the wisdom you all have shown, I've learned a lot in very short period of time. I contacted a luthier in Coralville Iowa and he's going to take a look. I sent him quotes from this thread to at least get him on the right track!
Right.
My bad.
I shouldn't be multi-tasking when I post here, especially with numbers.
:arrow
Not a problem! :bgrin: I just watched Uncle Rob's interview video. There's a wealth of information there. When he mentioned there was one brand that didn't get that "belly" effect I hope he was referring to Larivee. Mine doesn't have that........ I don't think anyway. I went right back to the guitar and checked the intonation on the 19th harmonic and the fretted 10th. Not as bad at all, and different. The high E and B were dead on. The G was slightly flat along with the low E. So now from reading more of what you guys are saying I think there might be a nut problem, and a saddle problem. The frets are definitely worn and now I know that's also a problem! I hope it's only $150!!! :bgrin:
As you saw in the video a setup should include the frets and the nut adjustment.The pix of the saddle shuold be pulled and clean and make sure it fits in the saddle slot properly not to tight and no leaning.
Quote from: unclrob on September 08, 2024, 02:57:14 PMAs you saw in the video a setup should include the frets and the nut adjustment.The pix of the saddle shuold be pulled and clean and make sure it fits in the saddle slot properly not to tight and no leaning.
Rob, what do think about a compensated saddle?
I make them now and again,I find the pre made ones will some work.Me I like the non comp for myself and many of my clients like them too make's them play better,its kinda like a tele with a three barrel bridge.
Thanks for that Rob. And thank you for the video. You and I are of roughly the same vintage, I'll turn 71 this year. I don't gig very much at all anymore but I do write and record my own songs. You mentioned Guild in the video. I still have a D50 I bought in 1972. I'm sure it could use your expertise as well!
So I took the D-70 to a luthier with an impeccable reputation. He did some beautiful work. He made and installed a new bone nut. He installed a compensated saddle. Replaced the the fishman bridge pickup because it was damaged. He also replaced 12 frets. He did not file the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. The guitar sounds great, but it's really hard to play. I told him where I liked the action at the 12th fret and he said that it was way too low. OK.......Now, even at the first fret it's fatiguing to play for very long.
At the 12th fret he has it set at .10 for the low E and .08 for the high E.(inches) or in 64ths it's 7/64's for the low E and 5/64's for the high E. For me (and maybe I'm being a baby, and if I am please tell me) it's just really hard to play. I've picked up countless cheap guitars that played way better than this...........it didn't play like this from the factory.
Another VERY positive thing is that the tuning issue is fixed. It's dead on everywhere up and down the neck. He also put more relief in the neck, (he said I had it about as straight as it could get) Yes, I did that on purpose.
He's very reluctant to make the action lower because he said that Stewart McDonald says that the way he has it set is the minimum that they recommend. He's afraid if he goes lower we'll have fret buzz or some other problem. I can say for sure we're no where near fret buzz.
Is there anything I can do to improve the way it plays, I guess is there a simple way to lower the action without going to a Luthier or will I need to go somewhere else. Maybe I'm being a baby, I just think a guitar this nice should play a lot better. He did great work I think we just disagree about how an acoustic should play........maybe I'll have to go back to lifting weights or just play my Guild D-50 instead.........just kidding....I'm not giving up just yet.
Tim
If this was my guitar I would have a conversation with him (because you respect him) but it is, after, all your guitar.
Have him cut a new nut and a new saddle to bring the action on this guitar more to your liking and ease of playing.
KEEP THE EXISTING NUT & SADDLE!
This business about not filing the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. - I'm not buying that at all.
How long are you supposed to wait for the nut to get to where you like it?
That's just unacceptable to me. If/when it digs in further, then you can have a new nut cut for it, but I want it properly fitted right now, today.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 07, 2024, 07:13:51 PMIf this was my guitar I would have a conversation with him (because you respect him) but it is, after, all your guitar.
Have him cut a new nut and a new saddle to bring the action on this guitar more to your liking and ease of playing.
KEEP THE EXISTING NUT & SADDLE!
This business about not filing the nut slots all the way down to the correct depth because he said the strings will work down to where they should be in time. - I'm not buying that at all.
How long are you supposed to wait for the nut to get to where you like it?
That's just unacceptable to me. If/when it digs in further, then you can have a new nut cut for it, but I want it properly fitted right now, today.
I hear you. It's a little disappointing. I'm not sure he'll do that, but I could try. The saddle really looks like it's up in the air a ways comparatively.
Maybe one of you wise gentlemen or ladies can tell me what Larivee or even other manufacturers are recommending for string height at he 12th fret and maybe even nut slot depth. As was said, I do respect him and want to give him a chance to do it over if possible. He did fix the intonation problem and the new fret work is really great.
I never measure anything I set the guitar to play its best for the player and want to see it back with notes from the player{I don't read mine's}.I'll make any adjustments the player feels are needed for him/her.Sometimes its not the guitar but the player may be squeezing to hard puling the strings sharp.
As always if I can be of any help contact me via PM with your number and we can talk.My email is being locked by yahoo and I have no way of prev who I am. :wave
Thanks much Rob.
Here is a site worth looking through, Frets.com. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html)
It's by a fellow named Frank Ford, quite knowledgeable about guitars.
There is a TON OF INFO.
thank you Rockysdad, I will check that out.
One last thing you should alway play for the tec.If they don't want you too walk away,if they don't want too hear what you have to say...walk away.Also always interview them,you need to know how they leaned to do what they know.Just learning from books and video doesn't always give enough info.I learned from 2 luthiers and a bunch of tech's over the years and I'm still learning.Glad that I'm old school.
Quote from: Tim Chipman on October 08, 2024, 06:24:35 PMthank you Rockysdad, I will check that out.
Quote from: Rockysdad on October 08, 2024, 01:57:17 PMHere is a site worth looking through, Frets.com. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/pagelist.html)
It's by a fellow named Frank Ford, quite knowledgeable about guitars.
There is a TON OF INFO.
Indeed.
He died last December.
Frank was a virtual wellspring of information.
I'm not a tech/luthier but I've known some good ones in my time of playing guitar. A tech who won't lower your action, etc, to your liking, is like a barber that gives you the haircut HE wants you to have instead of the one YOU want. I know enough to know that your guitar isn't fixed if it's harder to play. I recommend finding another tech that will work with you. That Larrivee is a great guitar that should be an absolute joy to play. Don't give up! Consider the money you spent on the last tech part of the educational process and move on.
Even after fully compensating the saddle, and doing all the other suggestions above (if needed), there is another intonation issue. It deals wit Equal Temperament Tuning which (among other things) makes the major third sharp. Other tuning systems, e.g., Just Tuning, fixes that and sounds more "in tune" than Equal Temperament, provided you don't change keys too far away from where you started.