Is everyone on spring break or something.I know I'm slow as its spring break.Not much news on my end after not being able to play a guitar about 8 weeks.Just got the ability to hold a guitar again now I need to get my hands and fingers back up to speed.
Seems pretty standard for this place. There will be next to no activity for a few days, then be bustling for a few. Whenever I see the "thread ender" stuff (which I've still never clicked on) get bumped up I know it's a slow week.
Well, I was busy fingerpicking on my JCL 40th for a good hour and a half or so today. Working on a new original tune.
Does that count for activity? :nana_guitar
Quote from: 247hoopsfan on March 29, 2019, 10:30:26 PM
Well, I was busy fingerpicking on my JCL 40th for a good hour and a half or so today. Working on a new original tune.
Does that count for activity? :nana_guitar
YEP!!!!! :wave
Man, Rob, when you can't even get a "kinda slow here" thread off the ground, you really know that it's kinda slow here! I might have to go visit the AGF and trash the Martin brand to get some feisty forum life going.
Quote from: ryler on May 08, 2019, 04:48:45 PM
Man, Rob, when you can't even get a "kinda slow here" thread off the ground, you really know that it's kinda slow here! I might have to go visit the AGF and trash the Martin brand to get some feisty forum life going.
Heh. I complained about the lack of finish under the pick guard of my D-35. That went over like a lead balloon. Apparently, even though Martin no longer does that, it was
not stupid at all.
Quote from: ryler on May 08, 2019, 04:48:45 PM
Man, Rob, when you can't even get a "kinda slow here" thread off the ground, you really know that it's kinda slow here! I might have to go visit the AGF and trash the Martin brand to get some feisty forum life going.
ryler I was once on that forum for a minute or 3 before I was told that I needed to buy add space if I was going to give free advice.
Quote from: ducktrapper on May 08, 2019, 07:02:23 PM
Heh. I complained about the lack of finish under the pick guard of my D-35. That went over like a lead balloon. Apparently, even though Martin no longer does that, it was not stupid at all.
Back in the day it was one less step in finishing the guitar if they put the guard on before the finish but alas latter down the road they ended up peeling up and we had to replace them after repairing the cracks that were caused buy the guard being under the finish.Oh don't tell any Martin owners.
Yes its been slow and I haven't been any help as I'm done buying guitars,don't get me wrong there are guitars I want and I even posted about it but I'm happy with my OM03PA.
Quote from: Barefoot Rob on May 08, 2019, 08:00:43 PM
ryler I was once on that forum for a minute or 3 before I was told that I needed to buy add space if I was going to give free advice.
Back in the day it was one less step in finishing the guitar if they put the guard on before the finish but alas latter down the road they ended up peeling up and we had to replace them after repairing the cracks that were caused buy the guard being under the finish.Oh don't tell any Martin owners.
My local guitar repairman was in the shop when I bought the new pick guard. He said he was surprised there was no crack under it. As it is, the new pick guard fits but there is still a ridge from the edge of the unfinished area so it didn't fit perfectly. And besides I'll always know it's bare under there. Kind of bothers me for some reason. Did Martin think that their pick guards were forever? I just can't see why they ever did it this way. Far be it for me to tell CFM loyalists that, however. Apparently, even though they have mostly stopped building this way, their "authentic" models and even the 100K guitars still do it like this. I thought that most owners had no idea there was no finish under the pick guard and I really can't imagine wanting them that way but apparently, they do. Go figure.
Been reading this post and looking at my d-35. Never thought any one would glue on a pick guard before finishing the top. Could understand if the finish would interfere with the pg adhering but at least stain the wood....
Sitting here staring at the guitar and almost tempted to lift the guard a bit to peek under but that would probably be #47 on my list of stupid things done (this month).
john
Quote from: jnidoh on May 09, 2019, 03:26:30 PM
Been reading this post and looking at my d-35. Never thought any one would glue on a pick guard before finishing the top. Could understand if the finish would interfere with the pg adhering but at least stain the wood....
Sitting here staring at the guitar and almost tempted to lift the guard a bit to peek under but that would probably be #47 on my list of stupid things done (this month).
john
What year is it? That was my argument with the Martin loyalists. They defended the practice as something people want but I figured that most owners would merely assume there was finish on the entire top and, like me, would be disappointed to discover otherwise.
Ducktrapper,
Not sure I understand....why would there be cracks in the top under the pg? Is it the removal of the pg that causes it or the fact that the wood is unfinished?
john
Quote from: jnidoh on May 09, 2019, 04:39:52 PM
Ducktrapper,
Not sure I understand....why would there be cracks in the top under the pg? Is it the removal of the pg that causes it or the fact that the wood is unfinished?
john
Good question. From what I understood, it's not caused by taking the p.g. off but discovered that way. I would think it's caused by not finishing the top and having it dry out under there but can't say for sure. I gather the crack happens under the p.g. beneath where the finger board extends into the body, between the sound hole and the face of the upper bout and that it's not uncommon. Jim said I was lucky. That's all I know. Maybe Rob can fill us in.
It is actually caused by the pickguard shrinking over time and, because the guard is glued right to the wood, it pulls the wood with it and causes what is commonly known as the pickguard crack. It is sometimes called the b-string crack because it is usually on that side of the guard. Many older Martins have this crack and it can usually be fixed so that it is not noticeable. If you are lucky, the crack is under the pickguard so it won't show but a common spot is along the edge of the pickguard.
Martin has not attached pickguards like that for many years.
Martin started using adhesive back guards in around 1982-84 that are applied over the finished tops, so the problem no longer exists.
D-35s first came on the market in 1965 so up until the early 80s, the pickguards would have been attached under the finish.
Martin owners, especially those who own older Martins, are well aware of the pickguard crack. Too be honest, most don't think it is that big of a deal. They just get it fixed.
Quote from: Dr. LJ on May 09, 2019, 08:29:28 PM
It is actually caused by the pickguard shrinking over time and, because the guard is glued right to the wood, it pulls the wood with it and causes what is commonly known as the pickguard crack. It is sometimes called the b-string crack because it is usually on that side of the guard. Many older Martins have this crack and it can usually be fixed so that it is not noticeable. If you are lucky, the crack is under the pickguard so it won't show but a common spot is along the edge of the pickguard.
Martin has not attached pickguards like that for many years.
Martin started using adhesive back guards in around 1982-84 that are applied over the finished tops, so the problem no longer exists.
D-35s first came on the market in 1965 so up until the early 80s, the pickguards would have been attached under the finish.
Martin owners, especially those who own older Martins, are well aware of the pickguard crack. Too be honest, most don't think it is that big of a deal. They just get it fixed.
Hey LJ! Long time no see. How's it going over there at The Hole? You and Bauman still into squirrels? Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. Apparently, Martin owners, other than me, can be very weird. :whistling:
I know a couple of guys with older Martins that have the repaired cracks. Another guy had an older one that didn't have the crack but the guard was starting to shrink so he removed it and had a new one installed.
I don't like cracks but they can be fixed and they don't cause a problem as far as tone and playability is concerned.
If it was a good guitar before the crack it will be a good guitar after it is fixed.
Thanks for the info gentlemen.....bought it new in 2017 so guess there's no problem.
john
Quote from: jnidoh on May 09, 2019, 09:09:19 PM
Thanks for the info gentlemen.....bought it new in 2017 so guess there's no problem.
john
Apparently, it will be finished before the p.g. was put on. Still can't figure out why that didn't make sense in 1975.
Well, it is a case of 20/20 hindsight. It was how it was always done. They had no idea 50-60 years ago that the pickguard material was going to shrink and cause a problem and for most of the life of the guitar there was no problem. Once they started seeing the cracks, they looked at how it was done before and made a change. It did not happen to new guitars.
It is kind of like the celluloid that Gibson used for tuner buttons, pickguards and binding many years ago. They had no idea that stuff would deteriorate and fall apart in 60 years. I have seen old Gibsons with crumbling buttons and pickguards that needed to be replaced. Not 100% of the ones built that way, but a significant number need repairs.
Who knows what may show up as a problem on today's new guitars in 60 years? I won't be worrying about it, but some yet as unborn guitar player might.
Quote from: Dr. LJ on May 10, 2019, 09:26:58 AM
Well, it is a case of 20/20 hindsight. It was how it was always done. They had no idea 50-60 years ago that the pickguard material was going to shrink and cause a problem and for most of the life of the guitar there was no problem. Once they started seeing the cracks, they looked at how it was done before and made a change. It did not happen to new guitars.
It is kind of like the celluloid that Gibson used for tuner buttons, pickguards and binding many years ago. They had no idea that stuff would deteriorate and fall apart in 60 years. I have seen old Gibsons with crumbling buttons and pickguards that needed to be replaced. Not 100% of the ones built that way, but a significant number need repairs.
Who knows what may show up as a problem on today's new guitars in 60 years? I won't be worrying about it, but some yet as unborn guitar player might.
I still ain't buying it. Only the incredibly near sighted would think that not finishing the entire top before adding an accessory (which is what a pick guard essentially is) is an intelligent choice. I don't see why you would need to see 50-60 years into the future in order to do that. If that makes me a horse's ***, so be it. :wink:
It doesn't really matter what you buy or don't buy. That is how Martin did it up until 1984 and it is why the pickguard crack is common.
I would imagine if Martin could go back and not attach the pick guards they way they did then, they would do so. Thing is, they can't. Stupid decision, bad decision, or whatever you want to call it, acetate pickguards were put down using a strong glue that bonded that guard to the top and when the guard shrank, the tops cracked, usually along the grain.
I am not defending it or saying I think it was a good way to do it. I am just explaining what was done and why the problem exists.
Today a totally different type of pickguard is used, it is applied to a finished top, and the problem no longer exists.
As far as waiting 50 years is concerned, I just meant it took a long time for the problem to show up. It took years for the guards to shrink enough to crack the top. Up until that time, nobody knew there was a problem in doing it the way they did. There was no reason to think the guards were going to shrink. When they did and the cracks appeared, it was oh oh time. Bad lesson learned.
It tends to be the 70s era guitars that have the problem. Also, luthiers I know fix the crack, apply finish over the bare wood and put on a guard with an adhesive backing. Sometimes a slightly oversized pick guard is used to hide it all.
Shrinking pick guards cracking tops...what a sad thread. Maybe the forum was better off being quite 🙂.
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The shrinking pick guard is cause of cracking, finish or not. Right? The finish will not prevent cracking, in this case.
Quote from: broKen on May 11, 2019, 12:31:07 PM
The shrinking pick guard is cause of cracking, finish or not. Right? The finish will not prevent cracking, in this case.
It is the way the pickguard was attached that caused the cracking. It was so tightly adhered to the wood that when the guard would shrink there was no give and they would crack along the grain. What would prevent the cracking would be the pickguard coming loose from the wood. The kinds of pickguards used today have an adhesive back and they are pretty easy to get off for replacement.
I don't know for sure if that type of adhesive was ever used on finished top guitars but I suspect it was not.
I guess I should be thankful mine didn't crack. I still feel quite comfortable criticizing this method of attaching the pick guard. I mean, if the adhesives used way back then meant the pick guard would have to be replaced in 20 instead of 50 years, so what? It comes off, the top is finished, you put a new one on. The way they did it was short sighted is all I'm saying. Someone should have known better. The pick guard is an accessory. The finish? Not so much. This is lutherie, not carpentry.
Quote from: Kohtzy on May 11, 2019, 08:49:47 AM
Shrinking pick guards cracking tops...what a sad thread. Maybe the forum was better off being quite 🙂.
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It's a discussion. No one's forcing you to participate in it. :cheers
I apologize Ducktrapper; my post was an attempt at a light hearted joke ( the forum is slow, so a conversation starts about damaged guitars...which, nobody wants to deal with.)
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Quote from: Kohtzy on May 11, 2019, 08:06:24 PM
I apologize Ducktrapper; my post was an attempt at a light hearted joke ( the forum is slow, so a conversation starts about damaged guitars...which, nobody wants to deal with.)
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Backatcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Things go right over my head sometimes. :smile:
If I had to expand on the pick guard theory of existence, I'd do a more in depth comparison between Larrivée and Martin because I find this very interesting. I'll start by stating the obvious, that Martin due to its long history and, let's face it, having made hundreds of thousands of fine guitars has certainly earned its reputation. For years, like the old TV networks, along with a couple of others they dominated the market.
Then Jean Larrivée comes along 50 years ago and starts making these incredible guitars and immediately some people are saying, "Wow! Nice guitar! Can you build me a dread?" Yeah okay. Larrivée also has a thing about the beauty of the wood and so doesn't put big black pick guards on his guitars. People say, "Beautiful! Is there some way to remove these see through things and put a big black pick guard on it?" JCL also has a unique way of bracing his guitars. Some people say, "These sound great! Can you square the head stock, change the bracing and ... put a big black pick guard on it?" Tradition! :cheers
No problem Ducktrapper.
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Quote from: ducktrapper on May 11, 2019, 05:19:09 PM
I guess I should be thankful mine didn't crack. I still feel quite comfortable criticizing this method of attaching the pick guard. I mean, if the adhesives used way back then meant the pick guard would have to be replaced in 20 instead of 50 years, so what? It comes off, the top is finished, you put a new one on. The way they did it was short sighted is all I'm saying. Someone should have known better. The pick guard is an accessory. The finish? Not so much. This is lutherie, not carpentry.
I am not disagreeing with you. I was just explaining what happened.
I am a fanatic about instrument history and there is a lot of history with Martin--good and bad. Like you said in your other post, just considering the number of years they have been in business means they have made lots of fantastic guitars but there were some bloopers in there, too.
I would not like it if I owned a 70s era Martin and it cracked. It could be fixed, but I would not like it. I agree that it was not a good way to put the guard on. It is just you can't do much about it now.
I did not even bring up the other 70's issue where saddles were misplaced by 1/4 of an inch and the intonation was so totally off that saddles had to be taken off and repositioned. I did not even mention that and I am going to save it for another time so you did not hear it here--yet.
I own 3 Martins and 2 Larrivees. I like the differences between them. My D-10 is my all time favorite guitar. Go figure.
Quote from: Dr. LJ on May 11, 2019, 09:18:30 PM
I am not disagreeing with you. I was just explaining what happened.
I am a fanatic about instrument history and there is a lot of history with Martin--good and bad. Like you said in your other post, just considering the number of years they have been in business means they have made lots of fantastic guitars but there were some bloopers in there, too.
I would not like it if I owned a 70s era Martin and it cracked. It could be fixed, but I would not like it. I agree that it was not a good way to put the guard on. It is just you can't do much about it now.
I did not even bring up the other 70's issue where saddles were misplaced by 1/4 of an inch and the intonation was so totally off that saddles had to be taken off and repositioned. I did not even mention that and I am going to save it for another time so you did not hear it here--yet.
I own 3 Martins and 2 Larrivees. I like the differences between them. My D-10 is my all time favorite guitar. Go figure.
How about that? I think we're actually in complete agreement. It's just that I paid 3k for this guitar and I was kind of p.o.'d when I saw the bare wood. WTF? However, the glass being at least half full, it's a very nice instrument. My wife's favorite of all my guitars. For me, it's third best after my 1975 L and my D-05. I'll admit it, I wanted to be a Martin owner. When you walk onto a stage with a nice Martin, you have some of the credibility that the company itself has, The game's yours to lose at that point. Anyway, with problems like mine, who needs luck? :cheers
From kinda slow around here to a Martin topic? :?
Quote from: Barefoot Rob on May 12, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
From kinda slow around here to a Martin topic? :?
"Non-Guitar Discussion"! :laughin:
I'm still around...sort of. Life is kind of beating me up right now. You guys are making me glad I don't have a pickguard on my guitar!
Quote from: Paraclete on May 15, 2019, 12:05:14 AM
I'm still around...sort of. Life is kind of beating me up right now. You guys are making me glad I don't have a pickguard on my guitar!
You're in the fray, that's good. It's not supposed to be easy. There is a curse, you know. Just don't let go of your sword. :smile:
Quote from: Paraclete on May 15, 2019, 12:05:14 AM
I'm still around...sort of. Life is kind of beating me up right now. You guys are making me glad I don't have a pickguard on my guitar!
I'm glad you're around here, Paraclete. Life is beating me up, too. I'm sure you're equal to it and I wish you some peace. I wish all of us some peace.
It's the big D for me, and I'm just praying I don't lose my guitars in the process.
Quote from: Paraclete on May 19, 2019, 07:32:12 PM
It's the big D for me, and I'm just praying I don't lose my guitars in the process.
Good luck with that, Paraclete.
A lot of us have been through it and I'm here to tell you there's both life and guitars on the other side.
:thumb
Quote from: Paraclete on May 19, 2019, 07:32:12 PM
It's the big D for me, and I'm just praying I don't lose my guitars in the process.
Hope you have some good friends. You already have one good One.
Quote from: Queequeg on May 19, 2019, 07:59:17 PM
Good luck with that, Paraclete.
A lot of us have been through it and I'm here to tell you there's both life and guitars on the other side.
:thumb
Thanks! I need that reminder!
Quote from: broKen on May 19, 2019, 08:11:52 PM
Hope you have some good friends. You already have one good One.
Amen to that! And yes, I have been richly blessed with friends and church family.
You could send them to me I have killer cats that could protect them.I know that there killer cats as they've been trying to kill me for years. :wave
Quote from: Paraclete on May 19, 2019, 07:32:12 PM
It's the big D for me, and I'm just praying I don't lose my guitars in the process.
Very sorry. Never been there and hope I never am. I also hope you get to keep your guitars. They will be a great tool for the transition to your new life.