So, I have had this Larrivee L-03WL, taken in a trade with a forumite for my D-03R, for a couple weeks now.
I took delivery today on a bone saddle and end pins from Cherokee Guitar. Check out my post on my transaction with them. Wonderful folks. Beyond wonderful.
Anyway, I popped the old saddle out of the L and measured it against the new one. I figured I would sand a little off at a time because it is easier to take more off than put some back on. The Cherokee saddles are made for Larrivees and have the compensated B string and drop right in. I had to slide a piece of sand paper across both ends a few times to get the width just right. After that, perfection.
So I made two cuts with the vibratory sander (gotta love that SANDING A BONE SADDLE smell ... oh yeah), and the action is still pretty high. I want it a BIT higher than it was when the guitar came to me, so one or two more cuts will do it. But the tone.
OH THE TONE.
:roll
The guitar seemed a bit quiet before. Now, I am afraid to play with my daughter sleeping across the house. The harder you hit it, the louder it gets. I have not yet dared to really see how much head room is there.
I plugged in for a moment through the LR Baggs undersaddle in the guitar, and plugged in tone was signifcantly improved. Makes sense that more efficient transfer of energy through the saddle would improve the tone of an undersaddle pickup. Was getting a lot more sparkle and clarity.
Overall, theacoustic tone is not that much brighter. It IS more focused ... more presence. The top and the rest of the guitar are beind loaded more heavily now than they wre before. You can touch the back or the head and the whole things is just ringing like a dinner bell. I figure some of the cojones and volume will diminish as I take more material off and the strings are not coming across the saddle at such an oblique angle. But I think the net effect will still be significant.
I already have a bone saddle on my OM-03MT, but am now tempted to get the end pins for that guitar too. Just seems to make sense to add more mass into the string/body connection. And the MOP on the end pins look kind of cool too.
That's terrific!! :nana_guitar
I added bone pins to my L-03W tonight and found a similar result.
Yeah, I was kind of cynical about the bridge pins. But they are the real deal.
Like I said, the overall volume will come down once I shave more off the saddle. The action is still QUITE high. But that is also a reminder that you can't have the lowest action in the world and the most powerful tone as well.
The action on the guitar when I got it was lower than the action on my Telecaster. I can stand it a bit higher, but will get there in one, maybe two more cuts. I'll be ordering more stuff from Cherokee soon, but would like to avoid ordering another saddle.
Many times its not the saddle material itself but how it fits the slot that makes the biggest difference, bottom and sides of slot.
All of my personal guitars have low action and most have bone saddle's but I have never had a loss of tone or volumn due to this fact.It really depends on the guitar and I can't tell what it is.My J05 was a monster for tone and volumn and it had the lowest action of all my guitars.My OM03PA is also very loud and the tone is amazing again fairly low action on it.Now it may be the fact that I use heavier strings then most people but I've never had a problem witheither tone or volumn.This also applies to my 2 LS's.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 02, 2012, 10:19:39 PM
I already have a bone saddle on my OM-03MT, but am now tempted to get the end pins for that guitar too.
I've changed bridge pins out on other guitars where it made a significant difference but on my OM-03MT it really made no discernible difference.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 03, 2012, 01:22:09 PM
I've changed bridge pins out on other guitars where it made a significant difference but on my OM-03MT it really made no discernible difference.
Thanks for the very applicable input there, Jeremy. I may give it a try yet. We'll see how it goes. What material did you replace your hog top's pins with? Maybe I'll try something different. Did you also have a bone saddle?
Just got done shaving down the saddle the rest of the way. Turns out it is just the tiniest hair higher than it was before, and in fact I may have taken it down further than intended. Very, very minor difference in string height than the Tusq nut I received the guitar with. In truth, I think the strings were smooshing their way into the old saddle, lowering the action more than the actual height would suggest.
With as high as the string tension was over the saddle before my last round of sanding, the guitar was extremely loud. Now that it is down to a more playable level, it is still very loud. It sounds prettier, too. I struggled with how quiet this guitar was when I got it. I don't struggle with that anymore.
Just can't express enough enthusiasm for this guitar at this point. It sounds infinitely better acoustically, and when I do the old test of hitting the open strings and placing my hand on the headstock, it feels like I hae electric current running through my hand. Plugged in, it sounds like a fine internal mic/piezo combination rather than the standard LR Baggs undersaddle that's in there. It has a lot more depth and complexity to the plugged in tone than had been the case. Sounds even nice rthan the K&K in my other Larrivee via the Pure preamp. And that is saying something.
Now gotta get back to some :guitar
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 03, 2012, 08:52:20 PM
Just can't express enough enthusiasm for this guitar at this point. It sounds infinitely better acoustically, and when I do the old test of hitting the open strings and placing my hand on the headstock, it feels like I hae electric current running through my hand.
Once again, that's terrific! Before I could sense some hesitation on the guitar and I'm glad you're really getting into it.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 03, 2012, 08:52:20 PM
Thanks for the very applicable input there, Jeremy. I may give it a try yet. We'll see how it goes. What material did you replace your hog top's pins with? Maybe I'll try something different. Did you also have a bone saddle?
I tried bone and didn't notice a difference. I had originally bought the pins for an OM-21 but the sound changed for the worse so I figured I'd try them on the OM-03MT. Strangely what made such a noticeable difference on the OM-21 made no difference in the OM-03MT. I ended up with solid ebony pins in the OM-03MT cause I like the look.
A lot of how the pins affect the tone of a guitar is how they fit. Just like a saddle in the slot as mentioned above.
Jeremy, not knowing any of the other variables I wonder if the pins were sized more properly to the Larrivee than the Martin in your above example? Most Martins (post 1994) have a 5 degree pin and Larrivee's take a 3 degree pin. If the guitar does not have the correct taper to the pin, the string ball/bridge plate connection will not be all that great and therefore lose tone - same basic principal to what was said above about how the saddle not fitting the slot very well and robbing the tone. If they are not the proper taper and do not fit the hole well, they won't transfer the energy well.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 03, 2012, 10:16:22 PM
I tried bone and didn't notice a difference. I had originally bought the pins for an OM-21 but the sound changed for the worse so I figured I'd try them on the OM-03MT. Strangely what made such a noticeable difference on the OM-21 made no difference in the OM-03MT. I ended up with solid ebony pins in the OM-03MT cause I like the look.
Some folks say they like ebony pins on a hog top because hog tops tend to sound bright and the ebony mellows out the tone a bit. My hog top could stand to be woken up a little bit. Will try bone. With the bone saddle I have had on that guitar for a while, I figure MMMV.
Quote from: cbarclay on February 03, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
A lot of how the pins affect the tone of a guitar is how they fit. Just like a saddle in the slot as mentioned above.
Jeremy, not knowing any of the other variables I wonder if the pins were sized more properly to the Larrivee than the Martin in your above example? Most Martins (post 1994) have a 5 degree pin and Larrivee's take a 3 degree pin. If the guitar does not have the correct taper to the pin, the string ball/bridge plate connection will not be all that great and therefore lose tone - same basic principal to what was said above about how the saddle not fitting the slot very well and robbing the tone. If they are not the proper taper and do not fit the hole well, they won't transfer the energy well.
I'm gonna disagree. I believe Larrivee doesn't even taper their bridge pin holes, none of them fit well. Also the pins do not act as a medium for energy transfer the same way the saddle does. The saddle acts as a terminal for string vibration. Vibrations beyond the saddle are mostly sympathetic. The pins will receive much more energy from the bridge vibrating. You don't even need bridge pins, classical guitars are pinless and they're usually more responsive.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 03, 2012, 10:41:09 PM
Some folks say they like ebony pins on a hog top because hog tops tend to sound bright and the ebony mellows out the tone a bit. My hog top could stand to be woken up a little bit. Will try bone. With the bone saddle I have had on that guitar for a while, I figure MMMV.
If it does affect the tone it should make it brighter.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 03, 2012, 11:47:30 PM
If it does affect the tone it should make it brighter.
Well, a dense substance like bone or ivory would make things brighter. Wood would tend to have the opposite effect. At least that is my understanding.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 04, 2012, 12:01:54 AM
Well, a dense substance like bone or ivory would make things brighter. Wood would tend to have the opposite effect. At least that is my understanding.
All things equal greater density vibrates at a lower frequency. In this case bone sounds brighter because it is harder and has less damping.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 03, 2012, 11:37:59 PM
I'm gonna disagree. I believe Larrivee doesn't even taper their bridge pin holes, none of them fit well. Also the pins do not act as a medium for energy transfer the same way the saddle does. The saddle acts as a terminal for string vibration. Vibrations beyond the saddle are mostly sympathetic. The pins will receive much more energy from the bridge vibrating. You don't even need bridge pins, classical guitars are pinless and they're usually more responsive.
Good point about Larrivee's pin holes - I haven't measured them and don't know for sure but I have a feeling that they are.
I think the reason classic guitars are so responsive are due to other reasons but the strings are anchored securely which helps the issue we are talking about.
I do somewhat disagree with you about pins not mattering. You're right that in general guitars don't
need them but the fact of the matter is that they are required on Larrivee's and that's what we're talking about. If the string ball is not secure, the vibrations transferring to and from the saddle will be subdued. For instance, if a string ball is pulled up into the slot of the pin that is made of a soft material like the plastic pins that came on my L-03W and wedged in between that pin and a section of wood that wasn't intended to support that kind of pressure (not the bridge plate but the top material), that is less secure than sitting on the surface of the bridge plate where it was designed to be. The hardness of the pin helps to hold the string in place and
that's where I feel the pin comes into play. I'm not saying that the pins vibrate, I'm saying they help to concentrate the vibrations by keeping the strings firmly and securely anchored and therefore transferring the vibrations to the saddle then to the bridge and the sound board.
I hope this communicates what I am trying to respectfully say?
Anyway, HAMFIST - I think it's great that you've dialed in your guitar. Now we just need to find the 'right' strings!
Quote from: cbarclay on February 04, 2012, 12:31:41 AM
I do somewhat disagree with you about pins not mattering.
I didn't say they don't matter. I was pointing out how the pins do not function in energy transfer the same way as the saddle.
QuoteIf the string ball is not secure...
That wasn't an issue in this case.
Also, you speculate a deterioration in tone but the fact is that even if the bone pins were not 'well fitting' the tone didn't change anyway from changing the pins.
Jeremy, I apologize if I misunderstood you.
I'm going to leave this alone so HAMFIST can have his topic returned to the original subject. Sorry to detail it. :cheers
Okay, this is heading into the direction of discussions I have been on regarding tubes versus modeling amps.
There are strong opinions on both sides, and it is akin to discussing religion. Or politics.
It's all cool. We are all trying to learn and get exposed to new ideas. Right? Right?
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 04, 2012, 10:35:12 AM
Okay, this is heading into the direction of discussions I have been on regarding tubes versus modeling amps.
There are strong opinions on both sides, and it is akin to discussing religion. Or politics.
When is comes to tone, whether it's acoustic or electric guitar or amps or tubes, there are no facts, only opinions. Of course, there are people who think an opinion can be wrong and that's where the trouble begins. :rolleye:
I don't understand that sentiment. This is 2012, we are able to measure sound, vibrational patterns, and use physics to understand modes of energy transfer. How energy interacts with bridge pins is an objective phenomenon; so opinion can definitely be wrong. Personally I think these discussions should be to learn not reaffirm each other's emotions at the expense of truth. That includes me. I want to hear scientific based evidence whether or not it agrees with what I say but please don't pretend we can't know anything.
What has helped me in recent years is that my opinons tend to fluctuate. So at any given time, I realize that the opinions I have, I may reject at any time.
One of my heroes, Bob Sutton, says we ought to have well-developed beliefs that are loosely held. That makes sense to me.
Just to reiterate the hold this guitar now has over me ...
I played it a bunch last night after I got it dialed in. This morning at 7 a.m. I was at an acoustic jam at a local coffee shop. Went to taekwondo with the kids.
Came home and played some more.
Now, once the SUPERGLUE HOLDING THE CALLOUS ONTO MY LEFT MIDDLE FINGER DRIES, I'll be back at it.
I think I will need an ANONYMOUS program pretty soon ...
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 04, 2012, 06:19:45 PM
Just to reiterate the hold this guitar now has over me ...
I played it a bunch last night after I got it dialed in. This morning at 7 a.m. I was at an acoustic jam at a local coffee shop. Went to taekwondo with the kids.
Came home and played some more.
Now, once the SUPERGLUE HOLDING THE CALLOUS ONTO MY LEFT MIDDLE FINGER DRIES, I'll be back at it.
I think I will need an ANONYMOUS program pretty soon ...
I'm with you. When I got my L03WL a week ago I thought the newness would wear off and it's only growing since I operated on the bridge and replace the pins. I can't stop playing it and can't stop thinking about it. We've got some pretty special guitars I'd say! :cheers
Quote from: cbarclay on February 04, 2012, 06:38:46 PM
I'm with you. When I got my L03WL a week ago I thought the newness would wear off and it's only growing since I operated on the bridge and replace the pins. I can't stop playing it and can't stop thinking about it. We've got some pretty special guitars I'd say! :cheers
So that would be a Larrivee Guitar Anonymous group for would it be specific to the L-03WL?
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 04, 2012, 01:01:30 PM
...so opinion can definitely be wrong.
That's nonsense. An opinion, by definition, is subjective.
I think what you probably mean is that when someone claims to be able to hear a difference in say, different bridge pin materials, we should be able to quantify that difference by measurement. I agree with that.
In my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :winkin:
Quote from: lmacmil on February 04, 2012, 07:35:27 PM
That's nonsense. An opinion, by definition, is subjective.
I think what you probably mean is that when someone claims to be able to hear a difference in say, different bridge pin materials, we should be able to quantify that difference by measurement. I agree with that.
In my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences. That's my story and I'm sticking to it! :winkin:
Indeed. There does seem to be a lot of cork sniffing going on among guitar people. "I detect a subtle note of fossilized walrus ivory and a faint hint of lacewood and a touch of impertinance!"
But when my wife notices a difference, I figure something valid is going on. She DOES have a degree in music education, but is no guitar snob.
In many cases, differences may be quantified, but how do you know what to measure? Volume? EQ profile? Attack profile? Some things may be very hard to measure, like projection.
Quote from: lmacmil on February 04, 2012, 07:35:27 PM
That's nonsense. An opinion, by definition, is subjective.
Not always, people certainly don't use it that way, for instance...
QuoteIn my opinion, much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences.
You could be wrong, obviously the differences people claim to hear is not subject to your position on the matter. Either much of the differences people claim to hear from subtle changes are as much due to expectations as actual sonic differences or they aren't. That position is not subjective; maybe formation of that opinion is subjective in the sense that it was formed on emotion but that's not important.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 04, 2012, 07:42:40 PM
In many cases, differences may be quantified, but how do you know what to measure? Volume? EQ profile? Attack profile? Some things may be very hard to measure, like projection.
You could do frequency analysis to compare the effects of different pins but the important point is that the differences in sound and the causes are objective and we should attempt to learn rather than throw up our hands and say 'we can't know, it's all subjective.'
Quote from: jeremy3220 on February 04, 2012, 10:09:59 PM
You could do frequency analysis to compare the effects of different pins but the important point is that the differences in sound and the causes are objective and we should attempt to learn rather than throw up our hands and say 'we can't know, it's all subjective.'
A while ago, there was a really cool thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. They posted sound clips of the same guitar with various bridge saddle and pin configurations. There WERE differences.
Hard thing is describing/characterizing them and determining which is preferable.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 04, 2012, 10:32:56 PM
A while ago, there was a really cool thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum. They posted sound clips of the same guitar with various bridge saddle and pin configurations. There WERE differences.
I don't doubt that different saddle materials sound different to some. However, I think the differences are much more subtle than some of the descriptions I see posted (by the "cork sniffers"). And if you are playing for an audience, I can just about guarantee that no one in the audience (except the guitar players) cares what kind of saddle material, bridge pins, strings or whatever the player is using. People are listening to the music and watching the performance. They care little or nothing about guitar tone.
Quote from: lmacmil on February 05, 2012, 08:43:56 AM
I don't doubt that different saddle materials sound different to some. However, I think the differences are much more subtle than some of the descriptions I see posted (by the "cork sniffers"). And if you are playing for an audience, I can just about guarantee that no one in the audience (except the guitar players) cares what kind of saddle material, bridge pins, strings or whatever the player is using. People are listening to the music and watching the performance. They care little or nothing about guitar tone.
I would tend to concur that an audience is pretty clueless to many things a guitarist may be attuned to. When playing unplugged with others, I HAVE experienced that moving to a better saddle material at least helps me hear MYSELF better though.
Here is the thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum I was thinking of, but the links to the audio samples are now broken.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169459&highlight=bone+nut+saddle+sample
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 05, 2012, 10:07:18 AM
I would tend to concur that an audience is pretty clueless to many things a guitarist may be attuned to. When playing unplugged with others, I HAVE experienced that moving to a better saddle material at least helps me hear MYSELF better though.
Here is the thread on the Acoustic Guitar Forum I was thinking of, but the links to the audio samples are now broken.
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169459&highlight=bone+nut+saddle+sample
Thanks for posting that link, I'll look forward to looking at it.
I agree that most of the time the audience won't detect some of the minute details but if it makes a difference to you it may hep your instrument to come through better.
The reason I switched from my OM-03 to the L-03 was so I could hear myself better and also come through better. I couldn't be happier that I made the switch.
By the way, HAMFIST, I put on my 'old faithful' Pearse PB Mediums on mine last night and played out this morning and it was even better. The whole thing vibrates like a drum. Very pleased indeed.
There is no standard to be able to make an opinion on what makes the difference you hear between saddles, in other words there are too many variables.
IE, if you put new strings on a guitar with saddle "A" then loosen the strings to change to saddle "B" you don't know whether the change you hear is from the new saddle or the strings that have been altered by loosening and retuning. If you put new strings on at the same time when switching from saddle "A" to saddle "B" it could be the strings that made the difference. Also, one saddle may fit the slot just a little better than the other.
There are just too many variables when recording these demos to say for certain what is making the sound different, some of which could be string attack, slight changes in where on the string it was struck, minor mic position changes just to name a few and also the cumulative effect of all of the above.
The main thing is that you like what you like and whatever anybody else thinks is irrelevant.
You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.
Quote from: Mr_LV19E on February 05, 2012, 06:01:04 PM
You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself.
Could be rephrased as "You can't please everyone so you've got to please your wife."
Great points. Especially this one:
Quote from: Mr_LV19E on February 05, 2012, 06:01:04 PM
The main thing is that you like what you like and whatever anybody else thinks is irrelevant.
I've had a few sets of strings go dead after loosening them to make an adjustment of some sort.
Quote from: HAMFIST on February 05, 2012, 07:40:14 PM
Could be rephrased as "You can't please everyone so you've got to please your wife."
:+1:!!!
Quote from: cbarclay on February 05, 2012, 09:01:44 PM
I've had a few sets of strings go dead after loosening them to make an adjustment of some sort. :+1:!!!
Same here, that's why I included that variable.
Indeed, string install is a key factor affecting tone. Some folks have suggested that new bone pins can affect tone just by virtue of how they fit tightly into the bridge and anchor the string firmly against the bridge plate. Mine do seem to lock in there with a loud CLICK once you seat the string.