I have an L03 Bubinga with a K&K pure mini installed, and for the most part I really like the sound I am getting from it.
I also run into a BBE Acoustimax and then direct to the board.
I play mostly worship music in a full band setting, but have recently been playing with an acoustic rock band (two acoustics, percussion and vocals for now). My big dilemma is that while I love the round warm sound that the K&K is giving me, I am really missing the attack of a UST. I feel like I especially have trouble keeping up with the other guitar in the rock band setting.
My initial thought is to swap out the K&K for an IMix system so I can get a blend between the UST attack and the SBT resonance.
I also had read some threads about combining the K&K with a DTAR Wavelength, but I'm not so sure about the idea.
Seems like the IMix would be better since it is made to work together, although I do hate to lose the K&K.
What say all of you? Any other options or solutions are welcome as well!
Thanks!
Dual source systems offer much more versatility than a single source.
I use the same dual source configurations, a K&K PWM and Fishman Rare Earth Humbucker, in both of my main instruments. Each pickup feeds into its own processing (preamp/eq and sometimes slight compression) and are summed to mono at the board. I add the appropriate delay/reverb to fill out the sound and provide the stereo imaging.
My default eq is to roll off the low end of the K&K and roll off the high end of the Fishman. This gives me the best of both, the solid low end of the magnetic pickup and the natural mid and highs of the soundboard transducer.
what about getting an EQ in between the gtr & PA?
you can fine tune everything there, cut out some of the bass frequencies, but not get that ugly piezo-ish tone...
EQ pedals are fairly cheap
*edit* obviously you have experimented with the eq on the PA, right?
You really shouldn't need the acousticmax (I have 1 too). Just an XLR pre amp to control the EQ and add a phase shift if you need it. The Acousticmax while very clean seemed to remove a lot of beef from mine. Unless you are getting a lot of ground hum the preamp will perform much better than the DI and give you more control.
I install lots of pu's for worship players and have installed the duel systems of an under the saddle and an I beam.Most end up using just the Ibeam.I've also installed a lot of K+K.Get a good preamp and that will solve all your problems.
That's good advice from Unclerob, an inexpensive and simple fix. A nice little LR Baggs Gigpro will do the trick nicely. I have a K&K preamp I use, same idea as the Gigpro. The K&K is passive and needs a signal boost, it should sound terrific!
I'd get (in fact I have) a K&K Pure Preamp. It's designed for that pickup and it does what it's supposed to. Whether I use it is on a whim if I'm playing through my Ultrasound. If you are going into a board, the XLR version would probably be a better choice.
Ed
Thanks for all the replies everyone.
I'm not sure how buying a different pre/eq is going to help. My acoustimax has bass, treble, sweepable mid, notch filter, phase switching and the sonic maximizer function. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
My problem is the lack of edge or zing or whatever you want to call it from the K&K. That's why I thought about the UST/SBT blend.
Am I making sense?
Quote from: gsage709 on December 03, 2010, 10:46:55 AM
Thanks for all the replies everyone.
I'm not sure how buying a different pre/eq is going to help. My acoustimax has bass, treble, sweepable mid, notch filter, phase switching and the sonic maximizer function. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
My problem is the lack of edge or zing or whatever you want to call it from the K&K. That's why I thought about the UST/SBT blend.
Am I making sense?
The K&K is passive, there needs to be a signal boost coming from the p/u to the amp, none of those controls at the amp matter unless there's a signal boost that that preamp will provide. With the signal boost will also come tonal clarity and a natural sound. P/Us with a battery have a preamp onboard and don't need an external one. I prefer external.
Quote from: bluesman67 on December 03, 2010, 10:49:25 AM
The K&K is passive, there needs to be a signal boost coming from the p/u to the amp, none of those controls at the amp matter unless there's a signal boost that that preamp will provide. With the signal boost will also come tonal clarity and a natural sound. P/Us with a battery have a preamp onboard and don't need an external one. I prefer external.
Hi bluesman,
I have gain and volume control on the acoustimax as well.
It's BBE's version of the PADI or Ultrasound DI.
The tone of the K&K is great.... I just want some more edge on occasion.
The big glaring thing that jumps out to me is the input impedance. The K&K pickup is 1 Meg. The K&K Preamp is 1 Meg. The Acoustimax is 2.2 Meg.
Ed
The impedance thing can be dialed out, but at the sake of some frequencies.
It really sounds like you are looking for a volume pedal with a couple presets.
You also sound like you are resistant to not using your acousticmax, I went thru similar feelings myself after spending the bucks on that piece of equipment. They do clean up the ultrasonic harmonics, but they are not ideal for a lot of pick ups. Same with my PADI, if I spend "enough time" tweaking it it's pretty darned good, but no where near as good as a simple matched preamp with a phase shift.
Quote from: Michael T on December 03, 2010, 11:41:29 AM
The impedance thing can be dialed out, but at the sake of some frequencies.
It really sounds like you are looking for a volume pedal with a couple presets.
You also sound like you are resistant to not using your acousticmax, I went thru similar feelings myself after spending the bucks on that piece of equipment. They do clean up the ultrasonic harmonics, but they are not ideal for a lot of pick ups. Same with my PADI, if I spend "enough time" tweaking it it's pretty darned good, but no where near as good as a simple matched preamp with a phase shift.
I wouldn't be against using a different Pre/EQ... I'm just not sure switching would do what I want it to do. I love buying and trying out new stuff (my wife hates it though :laughin:)
If I am reading all this right, then you guys are saying that the K&K's, when matched with a correct impedance Pre/EQ (Pure XLR or Ultrasound), will give me a sound that has similar edge to what a UST will give me?
That's is what I am looking for a warm sound with just enough front end bite and edge, and I feel like the K&K's have the warmth but lack the bite.
Talking about sound is like dancing about architecture... so it is easy to misinterpret and become frustrated when giving or receiving advice.
There are a few general things we should discuss before getting any deeper into this:
1) SBT (such as the K&K) tend to sound more "natural" offering more of a "body" tone and are often lacking the "bite" of an under saddle or magnetic pickup and generally have the lowest feedback threshold.
2) Under saddle pickups are known for offering a good "bite" and can cut through a busy mix better than an SBT. Some folks don't like the "quack" of a hard driven UST, although that can almost always be dealt with if matched with a high headroom preamp and some EQ. Good threshold before feedback.
3) Sound hole magnetic pickups offer a very solid fundamental sound, although some think it too "electric". Again, that can be mitigated by proper preamp and EQ use. They have the highest threshold before feedback and offer good cut in a mix.
4) Generally speaking, using the manufacturers recommended preamp for any given pickup type will yield the best results. The K&K is a good example of this. Because their SBT is 3 separate piezo discs wired in parallel the output impedance is lower than most other passive pickups. The input of their Pure Preamp (or Pure XLR Preamp) is designed to match the lower output impedance of the SBT. You can still use another brand preamp with the K&K, it just requires a touch of EQ to compensate for the resultant change in the frequency response.
5) The easiest way to build a system that can sound natural (or not), cuts through a busy mix, offers the performer a degree of flexibility for different styles/performing situation/venues, and has a high threshold before feedback requires a dual (or triple) source system with individual processing.
6) Real world is usually a compromise :)
From the description of your requirement, as I read it, you will be best served with #5.
Ron I think you are understanding where I'm coming from :bgrin:
Do you think the IMix would get me closer to what I want, or maybe another dual source?
The IMix is a nice system, and I think one that will get you to the performance you are looking for. It has the advantage of being an all-in-one solution.
I chose to go with my configuration (SBT and Magnetic) so that:
1) I could use my already installed passive K&K PWM (no battery or preamp inside the instrument)
2) Easily switch the Magnetic PU between instruments (I have since purchased a second one, liking the combo so much)
In the past I have also used UST/IBeam combos, UST/mic combos, Mic(internal and external)/Magnetic combos. All had the ability to be flexible with the predictable sound each brings to the mix.
Do not underestimate the necessity for good preamp/eq control (included with the IMix), regardless of pickup type.
Great info Ron!
Have you checked to see if the K&K is installed with super glue and not the adhesive tape method, that can make a huge difference?
Quote from: Mr_LV19E on December 03, 2010, 06:44:31 PM
Have you checked to see if the K&K is installed with super glue and not the adhesive tape method, that can make a huge difference?
They are super glued in place
Then :+1: for Ron's advice. :smile:
very informative thread! I never knew about any of this stuff :wacko:
my live acoustic experience is basically an SM58 :roll
I barely understand sing the SM58 -
I think I need Ron to come by the studio and explain how to use what I have!
I do house calls. Rates are much cheaper if you live by the ocean and it is T-shirt weather. :cheers
Quote from: bluesman67 on December 03, 2010, 10:49:25 AM
The K&K is passive, there needs to be a signal boost coming from the p/u to the amp, none of those controls at the amp matter unless there's a signal boost that that preamp will provide. With the signal boost will also come tonal clarity and a natural sound. P/Us with a battery have a preamp onboard and don't need an external one. I prefer external.
I'm trying to gain a better understanding of this whole impedence/output thing. When you say the K&K has relatively low output and thus needs a signal boost, I'm trying to understand what is meant by "low output". Yesterday, I posted in another thread how the K&K passive system I just had installed in my L-07 was "hot" with a lot of output. I was basing this on how loud it played through all my various amps and my mixer/PA with input and output levels set to similiar levels that I have been using with my electric guitars. The K&K, just plugged straight into these different amps (no external preamping), played more or less as loud as the electrics.
So now I am a bit confused on what a low output means compared to a high output. So today, I conducted a little experiment to compare outputs from my K&K equipped L-07, my SD acoustic tube soundhole pickup in the same guitar, my strat, and my Les Paul studio. I plugged each one into the same 1/4" "mic level" jack in my mixer and rapidly strummed an E chord with the same attack on each guitar adjusting the input level slider until the V/U meter was maintained at a constant 0db. I recorded the numeric level setting of the slider for each case. I was careful to apply the same amount of "strumming hardness" on each guitar. Here are my results:
L07 with K&K mini passive SBT: slider level = 3.00
L07 with SD acoustic tube soundhole P/u set at max. level, hight adjusted furthest from the strings: slider level = 5.25 (least output)
Strat vintage middle pickup at max vol. tone pot at 10: slider level = 2.75
Les Paul studio factory neck pickup at max. vol. tone at 10: slider lever = 2.50 (most output)
So, to me the K&K has very close "output level" to the electric pickups which I don't know if one would class as high or low, but at least as much!?? The only P/U that was significantly lower in output was the soundhole pickup.
Is this a fair comparison? Or am I comparing apples to oranges? Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
Kurt
For what its worth, I find that the K&K in my LS-03 straight into my amp is equal in volume level with my B-Band A-2.2 dual source pickup with onboard preamp in my LV-19. I would still like to get a Pure XLR preamp for tonal adjustment away from the amp. I have a Fishman Pro EQ preamp but I have to roll off all the bass with the K&K and it still doesn't sound as real as the K&K with no preamp. :donut :donut2 :coffee
The K&K mini passive pickup has a relatively high signal level output, especially when compared to passive under saddle piezo pickups. This is mainly due to the marked difference in physical attributes of the two styles of pickups and how they transfer energy:
1) Physical contact position: The K&K system has three round discs, electrically connected in parallel, and mount to the large, flat bridge plate
The typical UST piezo is a thin strip directly under the saddle
2) Physical contact area: The PWM discs have a much larger surface area contact than the thin piezo strip
3) Sound transfer characteristics: The PWM discs sense multi-directional movement of the sound board top and convert that energy to an electrical signal
The UST strip senses changes in string pressure on the saddle and convert that energy to an electrical signal
4) Transducer output impedance: Nominal impedance of the K&K is ~1 MOhm (million ohms); the UST is ~4 to 10 MOhm
5) Transducer signal level output: The K&K has a much higher nominal signal level output than the UST, as a direct result of the much larger physical contact area
Many find the output level of the K&K PWM to be sufficient to drive up to 20 feet of regular guitar cable to an amp or mixing board. A UST must be pre-amplified (as close to the pickup as possible) to bring the signal level up prior to being sent to the amp or mixing board.
Good information and reference to cable length. I use a 15' but can imagine a long run to a mixing board would make a big difference.
Thanks for the great info Ron. So lower impedence = higher output. Makes sense as ohms is a measure of resistance as I understand it. I think I'm still going to get a belt clip preamp eventually, especially if I actually ever end up playing in venues other than my basement someday. :smile:
Kurt
Quote from: L07 Shooting Star on February 05, 2011, 02:10:53 PM
Thanks for the great info Ron. So lower impedence = higher output. Makes sense as ohms is a measure of resistance as I understand it. I think I'm still going to get a belt clip preamp eventually, especially if I actually ever end up playing in venues other than my basement someday. :smile:
Kurt
No, Kurt. The higher output is due to the larger surface area of the SBT vs. the small strip of a UST. Since the energy each pickup receives is converted to an electrical signal, it makes sense that the larger the area receiving and creating, the higher the signal level output.
Quote from: ronmac on February 05, 2011, 02:26:36 PM
No, Kurt. The higher output is due to the larger surface area of the SBT vs. the small strip of a UST. Since the energy each pickup receives is converted to an electrical signal, it makes sense that the larger the area receiving and creating, the higher the signal level output.
OK, understood. Thanks again, Ron
I can relate to wanting the bite out of UST. I've always had a stereo jack with UST on one "chan" and Body or bridge plate on the other. Right now I have L-10 so K&K is what I get if I plug in mono cord, but if I want the UST it's there. If you run both and can split them left and right, the sound can swell and sound cool. If you're mono using both pickups be careful that they aren't having phase issues. Another reason I like to have UST is for less feedback. The K&K's are pretty resistant but still if you get in a loud situation, they can still howl.