I thank you all for the advice received to date on similar topics, but I need (hopefully) one more bit of advice.

Due to the unfortunate times, I am having to sell some things, but am trying to avoid selling any guitars.  I have arranged to sell my zoom recorder because it is less important than my Larrivees.  I am hopeful that this is a short term problem, and intend to invest in some decent mics in due course.

I am set on the trusted Shure SM58 and SM57 mics for vocals and guitar, can't really go wrong with that choice I suspect.

I have also salvaged an old PC which has some issues, but runs fine, has multiple USB sockets on the front, a very large monitor, and a large hard drive - really all I need for recording I suspect.  This is connected to a decent Sony HiFi system, so the output is via some good headphones or quality speakers, all with controls within easy reach, so that part is all set.

I am at a loss for an interface to go between the mics and the PC.  Most of the affordable options seem to be very much aimed at the electric guitar market.  Is there anything specific for the acoustic guitarist/singer out there.  I guess I need something with two mic inputs and phantom power that connects via USB, right?  There are a few out there, for example the line 6 POD Studio UX2 that has guitar and 2 mic inputs, and also software for editing and mastering.  It seems to be primarily for electric instruments though.  Everything else I find is along the same lines.

Does this kind of kit really do just as good a job for acoustic recording, or is there something else that I should be considering altogether?? Indeed, is there something much simpler that can operate with Audacity in the short term until I can afford some decent software?

thanks in advance guys

Ben

QuoteIs there anything specific for the acoustic guitarist/singer out there.  I guess I need something with two mic inputs and phantom power that connects via USB, right?

An Edirol UA-25 would do what you need. Connects to your PC via USB and will provide phantom power for mics.  I picked one up on ebay for about £50 (I was lucky, the new price is about the same as your Zoom recorder was !).

http://www.roland.com/products/en/UA-25/

Quoteuntil I can afford some decent software?

I can recommend Reaper www.reaper.fm which has an unrestricted free trial download (full functionality and not time restricted) and is as capable as most of the competition and is pretty easy to use. I found I hit the buffers with Audacity in terms of functionality very quickly once I wanted to overlay a few tracks.

Pete

Thanks pete, very very useful advice. That looks like exactly the piece of kit I am after. Simplicity but high quality is my aim, so I think you have hit the nail on the head with this suggestion.


I will check out the software as soon as possible. I have now officially sold my zoom, so it's good to know what I am aiming to do.

Ben

Ben, I found for a couple extra beans my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra really does the trick for a mid price range interface that has individual pre-amps so you can use Dynamic or condenser mics, super easy to use and comes with cake walk pyro that can be upgraded if you want all the cabinets etc that the line 6 offers (which I have too and never use, spend more time tweaking knobs than playing). Most of the tracks in my signature were done with 2 mics in a bedroom/office.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra.html

Thanks Michael, that also looks great.  Would the Fast Track Pro not do the same thing, with two mic inputs? Forgive my ignorance, but are the other sockets at the front of the Fast Track Ultra MIDI inputs?  What would that be used for?  Keyboard etc?  I am very new to this recording thing.  My daughter is keen to learn piano/keyboard, so having that might not be a bad thing at all.

They are both reasonably priced here, and certainly contenders.  I like the fact that it is designed specifically for USB 2.0, and not a USB version of a Firewire product.

I also found while looking them up that the Edirol mentioned by Pete is banded as 'Cakewalk' here.  Exactly the same kit, with a different brand name on it.  Probably just Roland's worldwide marketing thing.

Quote from: BenF on November 29, 2009, 04:39:21 PM
I thank you all for the advice received to date on similar topics, but I need (hopefully) one more bit of advice.

I am set on the trusted Shure SM58 and SM57 mics for vocals and guitar, can't really go wrong with that choice I suspect.

Ben

Ben-
While these old standards are pretty good for live performance, recording really calls for a condenser microphone.
Wasnt clear to me when you said you are "set" whether your mind is set on these mics or or that you already have them.
If in fact you already have the Shure SM 57 & SM 58, well, then I guess you are "set".

Quote from: Queequeg on November 30, 2009, 05:49:05 AM
Ben-
While these old standards are pretty good for live performance, recording really calls for a condenser microphone.
Wasnt clear to me when you said you are "set" whether your mind is set on these mics or or that you already have them.
If in fact you already have the Shure SM 57 & SM 58, well, then I guess you are "set".

No Mark, I have nothing at all at present.  I just assumed these were the safest option in their price category.  I am really trying to build something here that will cost less than the price of a new guitar, otherwise I will just buy a new guitar, ha ha!

I reckon I am gonna be the best part of £200 for a decent USB interface, maybe £25 for a couple of decent mic stands, £30 for a set of decent headphones (I have some, but they are a bit iffy due to my 8 year old wearing them constantly to block out his sisters), so around £100 each ($160) for mics is my budget.  The Shure's are both around that price range.  My set up is also within range of small children, so it needs to have an element of robustness about it.

Should I be looking at something else?

This could get complicated AND expensive, ha ha!

Ben, the price diff is nominal with the Ultra over the 2 channel and I believe the extra inputs are worth it, plus the have 4 state of the art pre-amps on the ultra "octane" I believe the call them. This little interface can handle full ensemble work, "X" style recording and add ins for accompaniments when needed, and it's small too. I did a lot of spec crunching and for the dollars and rep, they are an outstanding value and top line piece of equipment.

Thanks again Michael. Noted gratefully.

Out of interest, what mics do you use?

I have a Shure 58 and a beta as well as a pencil condenser and a fully matched vocal condenser (MXL's). You can also hook up the i-pod or tape to play along or dub with if you wish.

Quote from: Michael T on November 30, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
I have a Shure 58 and a beta as well as a pencil condenser and a fully matched vocal condenser (MXL's). You can also hook up the i-pod or tape to play along or dub with if you wish.

Thanks Michael, this has been really helpful.  I am not sure I understand it all yet, but I have been looking up everything recommended, and it all makes a bit more sense to me now.  I am quite taken with the m-audio interface you have recommended. 

Mics seem to be a whole new can of worms, with different ones available at almost every price you can imagine.

Bear in mind that I am progressing from a Zoom H2 recorder to a decent set up, so figure the interface is the right bit to get correct at this stage, as mics can be upgraded in due course.  That was part of my reasoning to go with the Shure SM58 and SM57, because I know they are good, and once I get a better understanding of recording, maybe I can start to look at what might be 'better' than good. 

Thanks again everyone.

:donut :donut :donut2

Quote from: Michael T on November 30, 2009, 07:28:28 AM
Ben, the price diff is nominal with the Ultra over the 2 channel and I believe the extra inputs are worth it, plus the have 4 state of the art pre-amps on the ultra "octane" I believe the call them. This little interface can handle full ensemble work, "X" style recording and add ins for accompaniments when needed, and it's small too. I did a lot of spec crunching and for the dollars and rep, they are an outstanding value and top line piece of equipment.

I sold my SM57 and now have a MXL V63M Studio Condenser Microphone which was actually less money than the Shure.
But honestly, I am using the Zoom H2 and I'm happy enough with that, that I don't often go to the big board any more. I recorded this (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=992990&songID=8406568) over the weekend with the Zoom on my little Larrivee P-03 Parlor guitar.

Quote from: Queequeg on November 30, 2009, 09:18:14 AM
I recorded this (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=992990&songID=8406568) over the weekend with the Zoom on my little Larrivee P-03 Parlor guitar.

:thumbsup nice!

I am pleased with my Tascam US-122.  It has two inputs and can accommodate phantom power.   You may want to check out the clip I put up for my Larrivee OM-60.  It will give you an idea of what is possible just straight plugged in.  I am sure that a cople of great mikes would give an even better result, but that will have to wait for a bit for me....

Life is like that... good luck...

Ron N

Thanks Ron, that looks good also.  Very similar to some of the other suggestions, and a good deal cheaper too.  There is a used one on UK ebay right now for a stupid price, so I'll keep an eye on it.  This is a long term investment (i.e. I can't afford it just now) so I have plenty time to keep an eye on potential steals on ebay.

Thanks for the advice.  It sounds good on your sounclick page!

I have learned a lot today - thank you all for your input here.

QuoteI recorded this over the weekend with the Zoom on my little Larrivee P-03 Parlor guitar.

Nice one Queequeg  :nana_guitar  ...a bit of Jefferson Airplane to brighten up a cold winter's day  :smile:

BenF on subject of mics I've always heard good things about Rode NT1 condenser mic.  Are a just wee bit more than the Shure mics you are considering but I think more suited to your purpose short & long term and often come up on evil-bay too.

Pete

I'll check that out too Pete. Will I need a different type of mic for guitar and vocals? With the shures it is obvious that the SM58 is for vocals, and the SM57 for guitar, but the condenser mica seem to all be advertised as suitable for guitar and/or vocals. Are different types more suited to each task?

Thank you again.

The Shure SM57 and 58 are really best suited for stage performance use.  "Dynamic" mics like these will take the beating of being knocked about setting up gigs and in transport.... "condenser" mics are less robust.  The Rode NT1 is a "studio" condenser mic that is much more sensitive and will pick up more of the nuances of acoustic instruments.  For a simple set up with one mic just place the mic about 6" from your mouth (with the mic upside down) and it should pick up the guitar in a pretty balanced way.

Pete

Cool, thanks Pete. Sounds like a good starting place for me.

Would the set up ultimately have one mic for each? I often see YouTube clips etc of artists with a mic for each, so I just assumed. If so would they be different?  Last question, I promise. I reckon between this and my last thread, I have this straight enough to go shopping when I am a bit less broke.

Quote from: BenF on November 30, 2009, 02:08:15 PM
I'll check that out too Pete. Will I need a different type of mic for guitar and vocals? With the shures it is obvious that the SM58 is for vocals, and the SM57 for guitar, but the condenser mica seem to all be advertised as suitable for guitar and/or vocals. Are different types more suited to each task?

Thank you again.

I believe that the SM57 and 58 are the same mic except for the snowball. The ball holding the pop filter for vocals. The core [the electronics] are identical.
Can someone verify this for me?
Pete?

Quote from: Queequeg on November 30, 2009, 03:28:37 PM
I believe that the SM57 and 58 are the same mic except for the snowball. The ball holding the pop filter for vocals. The core [the electronics] are identical.
Can someone verify this for me?
Pete?

Here you go, right from the Shure website...


SM57 vs SM58
     Question
     What are the real reasons an SM58 should be used for vocals, and an SM57 be used for instruments? Of course, everybody seems to use these mics as mentioned. No one has given me a convincing reason for this, other than 'That's just what you do- everyone does it this way'. Please ease my anxious mind!
     
Answer
     

The SM57 and SM58 microphones are based on the same cartridge design. The main difference is in the grille design. The SM58 was designed for vocal application and it uses a ball grille that acts as an effective pop filter. The SM57 was designed as an instrument microphone where a smaller grille size is preferred. In this application, pop and wind are not usually a concern.



The SM57 uses an integral resonator/grille assembly, where grille is actually a part of the cartridge. These two grille designs place the diaphragm of each microphone in a different acoustical environment. The distance from the top of the grille to the diaphragm is shorter on the SM57 compared to that of the SM58. This allows for a closer miking position with a more pronounced proximity effect. The different resonator/grille assembly design of the SM57 is also responsible for its slightly higher output above 5 kHz.

Thanks Ron, very helpful indeed.

  Ben a little off subject, but Q. (Mark) PM'd  me about a sale on Zoom H2's today. And I ordered one for 129.00 shipped.
                I couldn't believe it. I hope I don't have to "dunk" :winkin: it on the coffee table to make all the mic's work.
    So look forward or look out cause here comes some noise from a transplanted mule in Tejas and his little herd of music makers. :tongue:

I am really looking forward to hearing your songs Danny!

Thank you everyone for your good advice on here.  I am set on a list of 4 USB 2.0 interfaces, and will moniter ebay for deals.

I also have now changed my mind on the mic, and will get one Rode NT1-A mic.  There is an ebay package with a shock mount, cables, case and a pop filter screen for £150, which seems very reasonable.  I will then continue to look for a deal on a second mic for the guitar as I go along.  Second hand ones seem to come up a lot - actually there is a Rode NT1 on just now for 99p!  I am watching!

I like the idea of seeing how I get on with a single mic to start with, and then adding a second later.

One final question though, I have an old PC, which I have running great for this particular task.  It has a good processor and lots of memory, and 3 USB2.0 sockets on the front, but nothing else really.  The fan is, however, quite noisy, and tends to turn on and off randomly.  Is there anything I can do to block the sound of the fan from interrupting recording?

Thank you all again - this forum really is great! :donut :donut2

QuoteI like the idea of seeing how I get on with a single mic to start with, and then adding a second later.

Sounds like a plan  :thumbsup  if you go with the M-Audio interface with more than 2 XLR inputs then best next microphone upgrade would be a matched pair of mics just for the guitar such as a pair of Rode NT5 (no I don't work for them....honest) leaving the NT1A on purely vocal duties.  Close miking the guitar does mean you have to sit a bit more still though.... so no more Stevie Wonder style rocking about as you play  :rolleye:

QuoteThe fan is, however, quite noisy, and tends to turn on and off randomly.

If its just the case fan it might worth replacing it with a new "quiet" one.  You can pick them up on ebay for just a few quid (search for "quiet case fan").  Two minute job.

If the PC still too noisy then it might be worth fitting some acoustic deadening inside the PC case, also can be found on ebay or in your local PC World.

Pete

I use an inexpensive usb interface for my laptop with Cubase. The Tascam us122 has two mic/line inputs and comes with the Cubase LE for multitrack recording. Very easy to use.

Here are some songs that I just recorded with mine:

http://www.reverbnation.com/rexellsworth

Thanks again guys, Bailey, I'll listen to some of your tunes at lunchtime - looking forward to it.

I had a thought about this potential investment.  I dabbled with electric guitars for a while, but never enjoyed it.  However, the more I learn, the more I think there may be times when a wee solo wouldn't go amiss.  I have a very old poor quality strat copy rusting in my garage, with no strings etc, but I believe I have learned enough to have a go at making it work and play in tune.  Some of the acoustic restoration jobs detailed on this forum have inspired me somewhat!

Would the interfaces noted allow me to plug it straight in and add effects/amp models, or would I need something else.  Forgive my TOTAL ignorance here.  My desired investment in this would be a new lead and a set of strings, and maybe some man hours with a soldering iron and some wire wool (to remove rust) to get things working again.  No point if I need to invest in amps, software etc.  I ain't spending much money on it.

Ben, most of the interfaces will come with at least a temp software package in which you can choose how deep you want to go as far as MIDI controls and cabs/amps are concerned. Several interfaces will accept a 1/4 i jack (I have a line 6 tone port system that would take either 1/4 jacks (without a line level) or XLR inputs. The thing has so many combinations of cabs and amps I could hardly use it, spent more time tweaking knobs and lining up tracks than I did playing, it's in a plastic bag collecting dust.

The M-Audio takes 1/4 inch or 1/8 th inch and XLR inputs and the fast track ultra has 4 independent pre-amps for XLR line level inputs non-powered (condenser mics etc) as well as 4 non-line level 1/4 inch jacks. It comes with the cakewalk-pyro package as well as offers for full MIDI packages to review. The Cakewalk /Sonar stuff can be a simple package or you can get as complicated as you wish with the downloads. For me, I go with the straight pyro package for simple automatic cabs and multi-track capacity, 1 take 2 track stereo recording is all I really wanted but it'll handle many more tracks if you wish. Then there are the on-line downloads too numerous to get into. Audacity is a free good one for laying down a few tracks too, I have/do use it once in a great while, for no other reason than I have it on the computer and it is easy to use too. Electronics can get a bit involved if you are in to it. I'm not, I just wanted a really good interface (cause what goes in is the 1st step and that I wanted that strong & clean-hence the upgrade M-Audio interface), the software is for preserving or manipulating what you put in.
I hope that makes sense.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackUltra.html

Cool, that is what I thought.  Given that I can't afford this right now, maybe I will dig out the electric and take it all apart in anticipation.  If I break it, so be it, it is worth nothing.

Thanks for the response.  I am tempted to go with the Fast Track Ultra - it is top of my list, but I can see cost constraints limiting me to the Fast Track Pro (the Ultra is double the price in the UK).  I take on board all you have said about the benefits of the Ultra mind you.

So I am all set now, I have my wishlist, I just need to get saving!

Ben, the Ultra is the same unit with 2 pre-amps instead of 4, other than that they are pretty much identical. I usually use only 2 mics for solo work myself so it likely will be fine unless you have other players lining in.

Quote from: BenF on December 04, 2009, 06:10:47 AM
I am tempted to go with the Fast Track Ultra - it is top of my list, but I can see cost constraints limiting me to the Fast Track Pro (the Ultra is double the price in the UK).

Hey Ben, Ive been follow your thread with alot of interest mate, you've been asking all the questions I would of. Same deal in Oz re- the price difference of the Ultra to the Pro. Im acually heading from the other direction, Ive got a Tascam DP-02CF 8 track digital recorder, which is a great unit, but I always end up transferring everything across to my laptop anyway, which is a bit of a pain. Ive already got the mics, so I'll probably flog the Tascam on ebay and go buy the Pro.

By the way, can anyone tell me if these units are voltage sensitive?
What I mean is theyre powered via the USB so that voltage would be the same no matter what country you're in? Ben, US ebay is MUCH cheaper than buying local here, if its a case of just powering it through the USB they should be good to go for our voltage??

Cheers, Scott

That is my understanding Scott. It needs USB 2.0 if you read the trasfer rate info. 20% faster than a FireWire connection, which grabbed my attention.

QuoteBy the way, can anyone tell me if these units are voltage sensitive? What I mean is theyre powered via the USB so that voltage would be the same no matter what country you're in?

USB 2.0 power output voltage specification is 4.75 V min to 5.25 V max.  This is not affected by the mains voltage in your country as your PC (or USB hub) power supply takes care of the voltage downshift. 

Most people are not aware of it, but the actual mains voltage you get out your wall socket is allowed to vary a bit from the "standard" anyway.  Some extreme Hi-Fi folks will invest serious bucks in cleaning up their mains power, especially for playing back vinyl... but I've never yet been able to tell the difference with my standard issue cloth ears  :rolleye:

Pete

Quote from: dependan on November 30, 2009, 09:35:38 PMSo look forward or look out cause here comes some noise from a transplanted mule in Tejas and his little herd of music makers. :tongue:

bout time.