I've read a load of opinions on another forum about varnich superiority.I have no idea,as I have no ability to check it out myself.Would love you guys to clue me in,and weren't the "vintage/classic Martins" made from nitro?
Best to all :smile:
In what way?
It is superior over many other finishes in that it requires no special equipment to apply, good "open" time for application, is easy to repair or refinish, and is generally more flexible (or softer) so that it allows the wood to move easily without the finish cracking as easily. It takes a long time to cure and get really hard, and a hard finish is desirable on soundboards. But alot of those characteristics are based on natural varnishes, which are actually much harder to come by these days.
Lacquers became very popular as spray equipment became more common, but natural lacquers were still pretty picky about tempurature and humidity. Artificial lacquers ( like nitrocellulose ) solved many of those problems, and they dry harder faster. Offered alot of advantages for instrument makers, as well as most of the furniture industry.
Nowadays, electrostatically applied / UV cured finishes offer even more advantages to manufacturers - but the unresolved question is whether they offer as many advantages to players and repair techs -
This is actually a subject that could fill a book (or two) - I'm no expert, but I hope this little bit helps - I'm sure there's lots more info available from other Forumites -
Tad
Quote from: magictwanger on May 03, 2009, 11:29:12 PM
I've read a load of opinions on another forum about varnich superiority.I have no idea,as I have no ability to check it out myself.Would love you guys to clue me in,and weren't the "vintage/classic Martins" made from nitro?
Best to all :smile:
Hi Mark!
Am I correct in interpreting your "varnish" as in the stuff Collings uses?
I guess it is indeed superior judging by the popularity and the "upped" price tags for these models (if you can get them). Most dealers seem to have the regular models in stock all the time, but not the "Varnish" models. I can't find anything specific about that finish though, except that it enables Bill Collings to apply it VERY thin.
Quote from: magictwanger on May 03, 2009, 11:29:12 PM
I've read a load of opinions on another forum about varnich superiority.I have no idea,as I have no ability to check it out myself.Would love you guys to clue me in,and weren't the "vintage/classic Martins" made from nitro?
They used shellac up until the late 1920's then switched to nitro. Many builders apply nitro or poly at about .003" thick which should be plenty thin.
Yes,I am referring to what the Collings fans are alluding to.I've been reading about the "sonic" superiority of varnish over other finishes,and was wondering if you well educated folks had an opinion on the acoustic front.
I wonder just how much better it would be,and based on the "thinner the better" logic,how about the "O-3" series Larri gits.Thin finish satin,equates to a somewhat better sound?I'm just trying to educate myself,and am totally happy with what I currently own...yet....
there are some forumites,elsewhere,who swear by varnish....and....look up what Lynn Dudenbostel has to say on the subject.There are some who view him as a Holy Grail builder,of vintage style instruments.His prices are astronomical as well.
Best to all
I don't think it's that important. The type of finish doesn't necessarily determine the thinness. Don't assume because it's a varnish or satin finish that it is thinner than another builder's poly or nitro or whatever.
I read the guitar bench interview with Dudenbostel. He certainly seems to know his stuff but if I'm going to believe something I read in an interview or article there should be a reason and I didn't see an explanation as to why the varnish sounds better.
This is one of those things that shouldn't matter to the buyer too much. I mean you don't need to make a decision on whether or not varnish as a material generally sounds better. Just buy the guitar that has the sound you want. It's an interesting discussion but be careful about getting it into your head that a certain finish, grain count, or whatever is automatically better.
Quote...be careful about getting it into your head that a certain finish, grain count, or whatever is automatically better.
Another huge variable is the builder's experience and skill at executing the finish (or bracing, or voicing, or wood selection, etc.) Finish can make a difference, especially if the builder has factored the type and thickness as part of the "voice".
Hand finishing a guitar can add quite a bit of cost. A factory booth using electrostatic spray and UV cuing can have a guitar finished and cured in a matter of minutes. The French Polish finish on my Fay (currently a $1500 upcharge) was an 80 hour (not counting curing time) process.
OK Jeremy,you make a valid point and btw I tend to learn from many of your posts.Thanks...but...
In my case I really have no agenda(in my head or elsewhere,I hope :smile:) other than a learning,and storing away for future use one....Here's part of "my" deal....
I own,and truly love,a Collings OM-1A(amongst my Larri and two other gits).I was very careful about picking "this one" out.....Loved it,so I bought it,since I wanted a hog.....and then,I discovered that Collings has a forum too.
I am not active there,and have no intentions of becoming so,but many folks there swear by the varnish "thing".In many cases there are those who go ga-ga over a varnich OM-1A,so I was really wondering(not worrying)if there is really that big a "sonic" difference.In either case,I'm set with my little collection of four guitars,and am very satisfied,but this is "guitar talk",and I am always open to learning.
Best to all
Quote from: magictwanger on May 04, 2009, 05:03:16 PM
but many folks there swear by the varnish "thing".In many cases there are those who go ga-ga over a varnich OM-1A,so I was really wondering(not worrying)if there is really that big a "sonic" difference.In either case,I'm set with my little collection of four guitars,and am very satisfied,but this is "guitar talk",and I am always open to learning.
I think yours is dated, totally out of fashion, and sounds bad, and you should replace it with an OM1A"Varnish". So, when can I pick yours up? :humour:
Hey Mark
I agree with the posts on this thread, and truly believe in ultimately the guitar in your hand that sounds best to you. The ultimate proof must be the very two OM's you bought, in stead of a very over-promoted, authentic-specified, and thus over-priced branded model. There are so many variables that all contribute to the most pleasing result to the individual player. I won't loose sleep over that, but somehow I don't think you do either. You have some great instruments Mate! :thumb
Thanks Zohn,and all other great folks looming here!....Yet,I need to mention that my original question was from a curiosity stand point.I'm in NO way concerned about another instrument being better than what I own.I simply wanted to get info,and opinions on the subject.....
Btw,sorry Zohn.The Collings is going nowhere,and besides aren't you 18 months away from your "custom" hog OM?Cocobolo bindings.I have a good memory! :winkin:
You folks are the "best"....One reason I basically stay on "this" forum. :smile:
Now that we know where your question is coming from -
IMHO, the varnish issue is more fad than acoustical reality. I stand by my original reply, and feel that a well done varnish finish has numerous advantages for a serious player that intends to hang onto a guitar for a long time, and for the small builder looking for a finish they can easily do themselves, in-shop. Interesting that the feeling is that it provides a thinner finish - honestly, I think a french polish is even thinner, but has no resistance to alcohol, and lacquer can be sprayed thinner than varnish can be brushed. One of the great advantages of varnish in other areas of woodworking is that it builds up a heavier film more quickly with fewer coats -
The Collings appeal may be more scarcity and cost than actual sonic improvement, but having not played a pair of these "side-by-side" with different finishes, my opinion is truly guesswork. But I do know with other areas of marketing, a higher price will convince alot of people of greater quality, even if scientific tests prove otherwise. Just look at hi-end audio - Thousands of dollars for a speaker cable? Sheeesh -
Tad
Whew,I hope my statement about my not being concerned about another instrument being better than what I own,did not give anyone the impression that I believe what I have is so "hotsy totsy"!I love the "thought" of the finest stuff,in any area that interests me.I'll never own the best but am thrilled it exists,to some degree....but... :winkin:....
Tadol,on the subject of high end audio...don't get me started!! :smile:....I was involved there for many,many years.The vast majority of stuff was overpriced,but much of it was very good in performance,including the expensive cable "thing"(did the A/B'ing of cables too many times to remember,and have two pals who write audio columns still).....I left that endeavor because of the unreliability of alot of pricey equip,and the increasing lack of "quality" service/support from many mfgrs...Not to mention my need to be more interactive with "music".The playing of an instrument,IMO,is on another level altogether.I envy those who play well(I'm not one of them).
Best regards