I've got my OM 03 R just 2 weeks ago, straight out of the box. It therefore wasn't played in, action was shop-adjusted and I put on a set of new d'Addario EJ19 Bluegrass strings because I don't like the Cleartone strings and I wanted to try the medium bass strings. It's a beautiful guitar, with some irregular bearclaw in the top (I'm not sure whether I really love that, but it does add character to an otherwise 'standard' looking top and could possibly add something to the sound of the instrument too (the experts contradict each other on that matter I believe, it depends on who you ask)).
Anyhow, I'm not all that experienced with new guitars (this is my second new guitar), let alone all solid ones so I've got possibly a silly question to ask you all; will the sound improve say in the coming months or should I say years?
Right now, if I strum it, the bass sound is satisfactory and the guitar has a beautiful overall sound, but if I start fingerpicking the bass strings seem to miss sustain compaired to the treble strings... Should I accept that as something that comes with the OM shape or will this improve over time and possibly with other strings as well?
Greetings from The Netherlands, where Larrivée guitars are relatively hard to find compaired to your average Martins and such (but these guitars will sell themselves I'm sure :-)
Quote from: WWJP on July 25, 2008, 04:41:19 PM
Right now, if I strum it, the bass sound is satisfactory and the guitar has a beautiful overall sound, but if I start fingerpicking the bass strings seem to miss sustain compaired to the treble strings... Should I accept that as something that comes with the OM shape or will this improve over time and possibly with other strings as well?
There are plenty of makers who build OM's with more bass than Larrivee does. The bass may improve slightly over time but that's nothing to bank on. For strings I would try 80/20's if you haven't already, I think they have more bass.
Yes to the above and try EJ-17s.
Thanks for the advice. I think I will have to give my Larri some time to open up (as I read on this forum a number of times) and keep trying different strings until I find just the right ones for me. Next to try are Martin SP's...
I do love this guitar though, after trying all types and brands, the Larrivée's sound just had it for me (that is in the price range in which I was looking). And if I had wanted a really strong bass sound, I should have bought a dreadnought or L shape, right? But that was not the shape I wanted. Let's just wait and see...
Hi there WWJP, my experience has been the same as yours. I've had my OM-03R for almost three weeks and I was surprised too at how "tight" it was, never having owned such a new guitar. The sound was nice enough, but had little projection and sustain, and the guitar itself had the boxy-stiff feel of a laminate (with an exceptionally nice neck). I was sure I needed to change the Cleartone strings, so I ordered some Newtone Customs. Anyway, the guitar has become a whole lot more active and responsive just recently, just in the last few days. It's infinitely more fun to play because it's so palpably improving.
I played the guitar for a full ten hours yesterday, and my fears that I may have acquired a "dud" have been laid to rest. I even like the gentle touch of the Cleartone strings, but in looking through the threads here, a heavier string is something to experiment with.
Solid top guitars do break in. Different guitars have different degrees of change in sound. L-10 had a medium change which took a year or 2. 000-60 started have big change within a month and now after 7 months it has very much loosed up. May or may not increase bass. My opinion.
On instruments "opening up" I've heard both sides: They don't really do that, we just "hear" a difference in time. Or: They will sound better over time as the wood gets used to moving.
Now my anecdotal evidence. I bought a L-03SP a couple months ago. At first I was not too impressed with the sound. Nice, but not as good as my son's Taylor 310. I played a week, put on some new strings and got a setup. It sounded a little better. Then we got into the humid season, and I've been playing it a couple hours a day. The guitar really, no kidding, sounds better. It seems to resonate, and in some environments (small, "hard" rooms) it really glows.
I think it's several things. I've learned to pick it better, more evenly, and with the exact pressure the guitar likes. And the guitar was dry from shipping and storage at the vendor. But I also feel the wood is getting more broken in. It just sounds that much better than 2 months ago.
Quote from: goa on July 27, 2008, 06:56:13 PM
On instruments "opening up" I've heard both sides: They don't really do that, we just "hear" a difference in time. Or: They will sound better over time as the wood gets used to moving.
My response: I have a '59 Gibby J50 and there is no way anyone will convince me geets dont open up (this thing is a true cannon)........in fact given enough time, any solid body will explode in tone. Those that argue otherwise are likely referencing a relatively short time frame (ie under 20 years). I believe geets are constantly opening up which explains why we notice relatively subtle changes periodicaly however, its an agonizingly slow process. For a geet to really hit its "open" stride it would seem 30 - 50 years is required. Many builders today build light guitars in an effort to achieve that vintage sound and some do a good job of it but for the strongly built geet like a Larry to truly open..well they just havent been around long enough.
I'm no luthier but I have owned a lot of guitars. They definitely change in tone thru the years and sometimes from day to day. Wood is moving all the time with environmental factors "opening the cells" Spruce tops sound way different after a long period. Cedar tops won't change much. Don't know about Hog tops, I had one but my son has had it for several years now. I wouldn't think it would change as much as spruce. The thickness of the finish on the top and sides has a lot to do with it. A 03 series is more open at the get go than a 10 or up. Tightness and straightness of the grain makes a difference. There is no way...absolutely no way a 40 year old guitar made of similar materials bracing etc. would sound the same as a new one....NO WAY.
The older my guitars are the more the environment effects them. Thought I do distinctly remember my 6 year old LV-03R being much fuller in tone on some days. I began to notice it was during major shifts in weather. Then I read as much in an article somewhere (sorry).
This may fall short as an example, but open a jar of sauce and pour it on pasta. Then go to Sicily and have some sauce that was prepared for one or two days. It will be full of subtle flavors. The jar of sauce is just as subtle as ketchup with a few chunks and a little spice. to a little kid it may even be better than the real deal from Italy. But don't feed it to the mayor of Rome, he'll know better. Happy eatin and playin :guitar
I think guitars open up but not to the degree people hear. What I usually hear from people is there new guitar sounds a little weak in the bass or treble, sustain, volume, or whatever then they play it for a few weeks and it opens up and those things improve. What I don't usually hear people say is 'wow this new guitar has great bass (or whatever)' and they play it for a few weeks and come back and say it's even better in that regard. I think alot of it has to do with expectation. They're use to their guitar(s) sounding a certain way then they get a new one and somethings different like... they think it's 'too bright' and they're old guitar is much more mellow sounding and they ask 'will the new guitar(that they're not use to hearing) mellow out?' and of course in a few days/weeks/months it does. So if you are use to hearing a guitar that is darker than you're new one it will take awhile to get use to the different balance, once that happens the bass will be easier for you to hear. Sorta like listening to a new song and you can't make out half the lyrics then after you've heard it many times the words are clear as a bell - but the recording didn't change only your perception.
Quote from: L1D1 on July 27, 2008, 07:40:57 PM.
My response: I have a '59 Gibby J50 and there is no way anyone will convince me geets dont open up (this thing is a true cannon)........in fact given enough time, any solid body will explode in tone. Those that argue otherwise are likely referencing a relatively short time frame (ie under 20 years). I believe geets are constantly opening up which explains why we notice relatively subtle changes periodicaly however, its an agonizingly slow process. For a geet to really hit its "open" stride it would seem 30 - 50 years is required. Many builders today build light guitars in an effort to achieve that vintage sound and some do a good job of it but for the strongly built geet like a Larry to truly open..well they just havent been around long enough.
How did it sound new? Many builders today build light guitars to achieve that vintage sound because that's how they were made in the 30's. The lightest built guitar I've played was a 30's Gibson, it felt like it was made out of paper. Those pre war Martins and Gibsons were light built guitars and would sound today different if they weren't.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on July 27, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
What I don't usually hear people say is 'wow this new guitar has great bass (or whatever)' and they play it for a few weeks and come back and say it's even better in that regard.
I wasn't 100% sure what to expect from this Martin OM-21, but after changing the Strings..."Wow, it's even better now, and not by a little. But it was good to begin with.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on July 27, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
.How did it sound new? Many builders today build light guitars to achieve that vintage sound because that's how they were made in the 30's. The lightest built guitar I've played was a 30's Gibson, it felt like it was made out of paper. Those pre war Martins and Gibsons were light built guitars and would sound today different if they weren't.
This is a good point, some of the Collings and Santa Cruz models are very light, and I guess Gibson never totally stopped making lighter guitars than the rest of the big builders. At least some of the models are still very light.
Like classical guitar bodies that are made as light as possible to achieve the best sound, right?
Quote from: dependan on July 27, 2008, 08:43:03 PM
This is a good point, some of the Collings and Santa Cruz models are very light, and I guess Gibson never totally stopped making lighter guitars than the rest of the big builders. At least some of the models are still very light.
Like classical guitar bodies that are made as light as possible to achieve the best sound, right?
Yeah but those new light Gibbys dont sound anything like their 50 year old ancestors.
Sorry but the "Authentics" being built today, even though they are built to copy every aspect of the "Originals" including even the use of hide glue, sound absolutely great but they dont sound like the 60 year old orginals do today. Lets post again in 30 years when our Larrys have matured.
Great guitar there, yes it will open up and improve. You may want to consider having a bone saddle installed. I had an OM-03R and the sustain noticeably increased when I changed the saddle to bone.
I know it may seem like I'm wanting to "win" but I don't really care about that. Jeremy brought up a valid point, about builders making vintage style gits.
The Martin vintage line , especially some of the EC series are just in a different realm than all of the other gits in the room, when I get the chance to put my hands on one. I've heard the same about the Steven Stills models, though I have never seen one or played one. And although Gibson is not consistent, for sure; they still can put out some that are as nice as any boutique shop. I have played some of them and they are 100% Gibson.
My LSV-11 will probably take a long time to fully open. JCL talked about this recently. The gloss tops are double the finish of the satins. And other issues that I'm tired of stating. The 03's are more "OPEN" to start with IMHO. But I'm willing to wait on the LSV. I've got others to make loud noises with.
I am looking at some of these "lighter" vintage gits....who knows... Oh yea, I do own some really old gits so I have them right here to compare some of these things we're discussing. We also have a Vintage Shop in Austin that makes me feel like a kid in a candy shop. I think I should be glad there isn't a 12th fret here... I would be broke... I've got a dozen as it is. Danny
Quote from: dependan on July 27, 2008, 08:43:03 PM
I wasn't 100% sure what to expect from this Martin OM-21, but after changing the Strings..."Wow, it's even better now, and not by a little. But it was good to begin with.
well you know I wasn't including string changes.
Quote from: L1D1 on July 27, 2008, 09:08:34 PM
Yeah but those new light Gibbys dont sound anything like their 50 year old ancestors.
Sorry but the "Authentics" being built today, even though they are built to copy every aspect of the "Originals" including even the use of hide glue, sound absolutely great but they dont sound like the 60 year old orginals do today. Lets post again in 30 years when our Larrys have matured.
Surely you're not saying that Larrivee's once aged will sound more like vintage Gibson and Martins than the newer Martins and Gibsons built in the same style as the vintage ones.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on July 27, 2008, 10:14:09 PM
well you know I wasn't including string changes.
Surely you're not saying that Larrivee's once aged will sound more like vintage Gibson and Martins than the newer Martins and Gibsons built in the same style as the vintage ones.
He's not saying that, I hope, cause they won't ever sound the same JCL built them to sound the way his recipe calls for.
I knew you weren't meaning string changes and other stuff. I just happen to be playing this right now between a few posts and it was fresh in my experience, just as you had phrased it.
You made some very valid points, Thanks, Danny
I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that as guitars stabalize over time the funtion more as a unit and less as component parts. My 000-60 sounded tight and the bass wasn't as open as it is now, but I belive that is mostly due to finally getting the break angle correct and driving the top appropriatly. As Jeremy mentioned, people get used to their guitars sound. My friend Craig is a classically trained guitarist, with very different technique than myself. I used to sit and listen to him play the 000 and she sounded sweet when he played her. When I played her, I got all kind of wolfy notes going on and a weird "down in the well" reverbery soud that was unpleasant. As I learned how to attack this particular guitar, things changed for the better. I now know what the guitar likes to get the sounds out I am trying to get. So, after all this long windedness, I am saying its a bit of both: Guits open up some, and the way we play them changes, and its the cumulative combination that we subjectivly view as changes in the guitars tone!
Quote from: bluesman67 on July 27, 2008, 09:23:23 PM
Great guitar there, yes it will open up and improve. You may want to consider having a bone saddle installed. I had an OM-03R and the sustain noticeably increased when I changed the saddle to bone.
Great guys, thanks for all the comments. I love the guitar anyway so I'll just be patient with the sound. Regaring the bone saddle; does it really make a difference? According to a luthier I asked for a piece of bone, a Tusq sadle is even better (tighter or something like that). Anybody any experiences with that? I did buy a piece of bone to replace the Tusq one, but I must say I'm confused, it depends on who you aks...
And yeah, I read some of your comments, before this Larri I had a dreadnought for 2 years (just your standard Cort with solid top, nothing too fancy so I sure made a big leap upward :nana_guitar) So yes, I'm used to the way the Cort sounded after playing it for 2 years and after several string changes. My ears have to adjust to this new beauty, we'll just have to get to know each other I think. I have to learn how to play it so it can show all it has in tone and volume and the Larri needs to be played in (and perhaps a bone saddle and nut and strings...)
"...perhaps a bone saddle and nut and strings.."
Yea, just play it :guitarDanny
Quote from: WWJP on July 28, 2008, 11:20:23 AM
Great guys, thanks for all the comments. I love the guitar anyway so I'll just be patient with the sound. Regaring the bone saddle; does it really make a difference? According to a luthier I asked for a piece of bone, a Tusq sadle is even better (tighter or something like that). Anybody any experiences with that? I did buy a piece of bone to replace the Tusq one, but I must say I'm confused, it depends on who you aks...
And yeah, I read some of your comments, before this Larri I had a dreadnought for 2 years (just your standard Cort with solid top, nothing too fancy so I sure made a big leap upward :nana_guitar) So yes, I'm used to the way the Cort sounded after playing it for 2 years and after several string changes. My ears have to adjust to this new beauty, we'll just have to get to know each other I think. I have to learn how to play it so it can show all it has in tone and volume and the Larri needs to be played in (and perhaps a bone saddle and nut and strings...)
I had a fossilized walrus ivory saddle and bone nut put on my OM-03R when I got it about 2 years ago. The change in sound is subtle, but definite. The sustain is better and the notes ring out more. The volume may actually be slightly less than with the original Tusk, but the sound is definitely more appealing to my ears. I would not hesitate to recommend this. A great, and relatively inexpensive upgrade and if you don't like it, it is easy to put back the Tusk saddle.
Hani
Quote from: L1D1 on July 27, 2008, 09:08:34 PM
Lets post again in 30 years when our Larrys have matured.
:bgrin: This is where I get to be one of few who can say I have had my Larrivee 30 years. (well 28 years) On the L-10 most of the breaking in accurred over the 1st year or 2. Not tremendous change since then. I do have recordings done when it was young to compare it to now as well. I think different guitars do differently.
Quote from: flatlander on July 28, 2008, 09:33:35 PM
:bgrin: This is where I get to be one of few who can say I have had my Larrivee 30 years. (well 28 years) On the L-10 most of the breaking in occurred over the 1st year or 2. Not tremendous change since then. I do have recordings done when it was young to compare it to now as well. I think different guitars do differently.
So did it "open up", or is your 000 on the same basic sonic level?
Yes, definitely swap out the saddle with bone and give it at least 6 months to open up. My OM-03R had the same "problem" as yours and the first thing I did was pry out that tone-killing TUSQ saddle and put in a bone saddle from www.guitarsaddles.com. Even with the same strings (I just loosened them so that I could take out the saddle) the change in clarity and sustain was apparent. Experimenting with different brands of strings will also certainly help, but also consider putting medium gauge strings (such as D'Addorio EJ17s) to help drive the top more.
I also have a bone nut waiting to be installed; I'm going to go see a luthier this weekend and have it done.
I wonder if Mr. Colosi ever gets bored just filing down bone saddles all frikkin day? Doesn't he toss out a dud to the adoring masses once in while just t entertain himself?
Quote from: dependan on July 28, 2008, 09:52:23 PM
So did it "open up", or is your 000 on the same basic sonic level?
The 000-60 has opened up much more quickly and dramatically than L-10. If it keeps it up, I'm gonna have to start putting on a diaper every time I go to pick it up. The grain is pretty wide on it. Does that make it loose up quicker? I dare not guess.
Quote from: flatlander on July 29, 2008, 09:50:22 AM
The 000-60 has opened up much more quickly and dramatically than L-10. If it keeps it up, I'm gonna have to start putting on a diaper every time I go to pick it up. The grain is pretty wide on it. Does that make it loose up quicker? I dare not guess.
From what I have read the tighter the grain the longer the cells take to open up. Thanks for the reply, Danny
So the tighter the grain, the longer it takes to have it open up... Oh boy am I in for a long wait since my Larri has a nice even (and tight) grain on the top and even irregular bearclaw (which might add to the tightness?)...
I think tight is also the word I would use to describe the tone right now, it just doesn't ring out like I now it can (I've heard and played several Larrivée's among which other OM's). I've read all your comments, I'll keep playing and trying different strings and what have you.
I've got a piece of bone to make into a saddle, safes me about 30 US Dollar I think (I live in The Netherlands). Worth the try though.
Thanks everybode. And oh yeah, I really like this forum, great talking to you guys :smile: there aren't that many people around in The Netherlands who already own a Larrivée like mine and can help me with advice like you do.
Quote from: WWJP on July 29, 2008, 04:32:40 PM
So the tighter the grain, the longer it takes to have it open up... Oh boy am I in for a long wait since my Larri has a nice even (and tight) grain on the top and even irregular bearclaw (which might add to the tightness?)...
I think tight is also the word I would use to describe the tone right now, it just doesn't ring out like I now it can (I've heard and played several Larrivée's among which other OM's). I've read all your comments, I'll keep playing and trying different strings and what have you.
I've got a piece of bone to make into a saddle, safes me about 30 US Dollar I think (I live in The Netherlands). Worth the try though.
Thanks everybode. And oh yeah, I really like this forum, great talking to you guys :smile: there aren't that many people around in The Netherlands who already own a Larrivée like mine and can help me with advice like you do.
JCL (Jean Larrivee) said that the grain should be tighter in the middle of the soundboard and get wider as it gets closer to the edge of the top. I think rosewood takes a little longer than hog to open also. But the more you play the better it will get.
Quote from: bluesman67 on July 27, 2008, 09:23:23 PM
Great guitar there, yes it will open up and improve. You may want to consider having a bone saddle installed. I had an OM-03R and the sustain noticeably increased when I changed the saddle to bone.
:+1: :+1:
I did the same with my OM-03R. I found the improvement in volume and sustain very significant. I wasn't really eager to do the switch to bone since the TUSQ was working for me, I just needed to replace a defective nut and figured I would upgrade the saddle too. The bone was a terrific decision though I have to admit that it just didn't sound right until about 4-5 days of playing; it took my ear time to get used to the augmented tone. I assume that this adjustment is similar to what we all go through with a new guitar.
Given that our minds take a while to adjust to a tone that is not actually changing, I would imagine that a significant amount of the difference we hear in a guitar that is "opening up" is part of our subjective interpretation. I would not dispute that the wood is changing over time but I wouldn't dismiss the inconsistency in our qualitative judgments. It makes me wonder if I've been passing up guitars I would love down the road because the sound was too different to be palatable to my ears on an initial tasting.
I'm wondering if Jason over at Notable put a bone saddle in my OM-03RE, because from day 1 it has been an awesome sounding instrument. He had a few to choose from, so I described what I expected sound-wise, and boy did it deliver. Over the past few months, and destroying a set of strings every week and a half (yes, I think I have already put thousands of hours on this instrument), it has opened me up. The volume, tone, and bass response are all balanced, and it has made it possible to learn more guitar tricks over a few months than I got over 20 years with an average guitar. I would say that has to do a lot with how it feels in my hands, how it is built, and mostly, how it sounds. If it gets better over time, great. But, the number 1 comment I get at the dinky open mikes I go to is how great the guitar sounds (never mind my playing...kind of a pride buster).
Of course, I still have a buddy with a very expensive Taylor who says he likes his Taylor sound more than the Larrivee: that's because the Taylor is a deeper-bodied guitar. It's all about the bass. An OM is NOT a dreadnaught sound, no matter how big the sound gets. The body is thinner, and the notes are more defined for fingerpicking styles. Most dreads now sound muddy to me. Ugly, even. Part of that undesirable sound (for me) is because the bass overpowers the rest of the strings. The cool thing about Larrivee is that he uses symmetrical bracing. At first, I thought that was a bad idea. But now that I own one, I see it as a different way to present the sound.
Do I still love the twangy treble and "bassy" Martin OMs? You bet. But I am learning to appreciate how wonderful the Larrivee sound is. I think what I'm trying to say here is to let the sound grow on you. Maybe you'll love it eventually. If not, enjoy some donuts in the mean time (as if any of us need them): :donut :donut2 :donut :donut :donut2 :donut2 :donut :coffee :donut :donut2 :donut :donut
Thanks for the donuts! I could offer you a Frisian speciality like Dûmkes but I don't see a smiley for that :bgrin:
Anyhow, I already loved the Larrivée sound and didn't want another dreadnought or similar (like the Larrivée L model) so yeah I made a calculated decision to buy myself an OM instead of a boomier dreadnought or 'L'.
No regrets, but like I said before, this is my first all solid guitar which I hope to keep for a looooong time (I'm not sure it will be with me for 28 years though :winkin:. I heard the sound clips for the KOA versions, my goodness, what can I say; you have to have something to keep dreaming about right?)
I'll try the bone saddle though, seems like a good experiment. And of course I'll keep playing, and playing, and playing...
HI,
I have a stupid theory. When I got my first OM guitar, ever, (A Dreadnaught being my first). This occured to me too. I found the bass being weaker. As my experience improved, I have found that this is the characteristic you would find on an OM sized guitar. The "balanced" tone makes you think you got less bass when you actually got more even highs. So , to your ears, the bass is weaker especially if your previous guitar was a Dreadnaught . The highs are louder so, to your ears, the bass isn't that loud. Bright high tones can trick your ears into thinking it is louder too! An example would be : mahogany guitars would be loud but when compared to a ..let's say..koa, koa would sound louder due to the clear highs. But if you have someone play both together you would find mahogany rings louder. This theory would depend on the guitar maker and various woods , hence..it might be a stupid theory.
The guitar would open up in due time , for sure.
Not a stupid theory at all. Makes me think how much of what we think is a 'problem' with our guitars, is actually between our ears ... I do know that my old Cort did have a lot more bass than my new Larri, but then again, this Larri is much more balanced. The sound is just soooo much 'richer'. I'm getting to like my new Larri more each day, as I play it, try new strings and as my ears adjust to the different sound than that of my old dread.
I've put in a bone saddle and bronze strings, which does something to my ears too :winkin:
Anyway, thank for the input, have one on me :donut
A friend of mine, with a lot more guitar playing experience than I have, has just played it, and he really liked it. In fact, he told me he was going to take a look at the Larrivée's himself, he liked it that much. Being a fingerpicker, he really said my OM started singing the moment he touched the strings, no need to work hard there (allthough it doesn't mind a bit of strumming either, it just is a great allrounder as far as I'm concerned.)
Quote from: Edwardtang on July 30, 2008, 07:29:31 PM
HI,
I have a stupid theory. When I got my first OM guitar, ever, (A Dreadnaught being my first). This occured to me too. I found the bass being weaker. As my experience improved, I have found that this is the characteristic you would find on an OM sized guitar. The "balanced" tone makes you think you got less bass when you actually got more even highs. So , to your ears, the bass is weaker especially if your previous guitar was a Dreadnaught . The highs are louder so, to your ears, the bass isn't that loud. Bright high tones can trick your ears into thinking it is louder too! An example would be : mahogany guitars would be loud but when compared to a ..let's say..koa, koa would sound louder due to the clear highs. But if you have someone play both together you would find mahogany rings louder. This theory would depend on the guitar maker and various woods , hence..it might be a stupid theory.
The guitar would open up in due time , for sure.
I like your stupid theory. :beer
Quote from: bluesman67 on July 27, 2008, 09:23:23 PM
Great guitar there, yes it will open up and improve. You may want to consider having a bone saddle installed. I had an OM-03R and the sustain noticeably increased when I changed the saddle to bone.
Same here. My OM-03R is about 2 years old now. Changing to EJ-17's and installing a bone saddle created the bass and sustain I thought was a bit lacking before. I never really gave a lot of thought to a guitar "opening up" before but this one has iimproved dramatically in the last 6 months or so.