How will buffing out an 03 affect its value? It doesn't seem like a big factor in recent sales I've seen but I also wonder about the long term. I'm wondering if in 30 years if people will be wanting 'all original' Larrivee's. Of course Larrivee's that are currently 30 years old don't fetch much money anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter. I'm just thinking there might be a day when these are treated like pre-war Martin's are now and people will want them with original pins,tuners,etc. 

I think the short answer is: who knows?  :smile:

 :ph34r:

Well, I doubt larrivees will ever be regarded in the same way prewar martins are, those are considered the original standard of great modern acoustic guitar design. PWMartins are and will always be considered the "holy grail" of acoustics although this iconic status is a little absurd. But in some respects such as the actual design and a large number of exceptional instruments I feel that it is deserved.  I think some people will prefer a glossed 03 and some would rather have an "original" finished one.  But as long as the "glossing" hasn't caused any problems with the finish longterm and is done well I don't see it as being a problem asthetically.  But, in thirty years I were looking for a nice "vintage" larrivee 03 guitar I would likely prefer an original one.

But who know I might end up glossing it anyway. :arrow

QuoteHow will buffing out an 03 affect its value?

It can only likely reduce its general saleability as most folks are going to prefer to buy a guitar with an "as original" finish now and in the future.  Bone saddles & nuts, better tuners, ebony pins and pegs are all reversal "enhancements".... glossing is a one way trip unfortunately  :doh

Pete

Thing is, any satin finish will, with time and a lot of playing, will start to develop shiny spots...like under where you rest your right arm so in my mind, buffing is just speeding up this process and making the guitar's finish nice and even.  Just like the satin finish on the neck.  It will never stay satin. 

I remember when I buffed my OM-15.  I didn't even use any "products" just the steel wool.  I'd had it for a year or 2 at that point and you could see a shiny spot developing underwhere I would rest my right arm on the guitar. 

Ask Blue in VT if he would have paid more for his OM-03BW if it hadn't been buffed out...

Well, I have seen several 03 series guitars for sale here that I have been interested in. But as soon as I see they have been polished, I move on. I like the satin finish on the 03 series and do not want one that has been polished.

Jim

The chance of 03 Larrivee's having collectable value in years to come is slim to none. There weren't that many pre-war Martins made to begin with. Maybe a few hundred per year at most. Those high dollar Martins are closer to 60 than 30 years old. For example a 30 year old D35 ain't worth all that much. Currently there are hundreds of thousands of guitars in the Larrivee 03 value range being produced every year by more makers than I can count. The special edition Larrivee's  of which only a few are made probably have the best chance of really appreciating in value.

Quote from: jwsamuel on June 06, 2007, 02:17:35 PM
Well, I have seen several 03 series guitars for sale here that I have been interested in. But as soon as I see they have been polished, I move on. I like the satin finish on the 03 series and do not want one that has been polished.
Jim

I agree 100% with Jim's point of view.  I specifically wanted a 'satin' finish L-03, not an L-05.

I like satin finishes.  My previous two acoustics, a Seagull Cedar 6+ and a La Patrie Etude, were both satin finishes.

Right now, my GAS is nudging me to find a used Larrivée P-03.  If I find one that's been polished, I'll simply move on.   :bgrin:

I believe you should buy a guitar to play. I further believe that guitars built today are better because of the technology. The vintage ones have value because they are rare or in some cases represent the guitar we dreamed about when we were younger and could not afford much. Today many of us are vintage like the guitars we play.

If you like a polished guitar, go for it, it will give you more pleasure when you play. In 30 years you can worry about its value. I have a great collection and don't think of them as an investment. I will just play them while I am around and someone else is going to maybe get a great old guitar.

Quote from: PortHueneme on June 06, 2007, 03:42:09 PM

If you like a polished guitar, go for it, it will give you more pleasure when you play. In 30 years you can worry about its value.

Yes, but thats the point if you do irreversable modifications to it the value will be affected in the future.  Think if you bought a Fender Telecaster in 1953.  You didn't like that "yellow" finish so you painted it red instead.  That guitar in original condition would be worth over $50,000 today while a repainted one would be worth probably a fourth of that.

QuoteToday many of us are vintage like the guitars we play.

Cruel!

Yet true.

Quote from: Denis on June 06, 2007, 02:01:37 PM
Thing is, any satin finish will, with time and a lot of playing, will start to develop shiny spots...like under where you rest your right arm so in my mind, buffing is just speeding up this process and making the guitar's finish nice and even. 

Yeh I thought about that. possibly in 30 years you wouldn't be able to tell whether it was buffed or not.

I didn't mean that these would ever reach pre-war Martin status but rather that they might become highly collectable items due to the diminishing supply of tonewoods. Probably not rare enough though.

Quote from: stuco on June 06, 2007, 03:59:43 PM
Yes, but thats the point if you do irreversable modifications to it the value will be affected in the future.  Think if you bought a Fender Telecaster in 1953.  You didn't like that "yellow" finish so you painted it red instead.  That guitar in original condition would be worth over $50,000 today while a repainted one would be worth probably a fourth of that.

I agree if you are buying it as an investment. If future value is the reason you buy, then you should keep the guitar in it case, in a box so all stay pristine for a future date.
What I think about is a guitar from 1953 it 54 years old. When my 2005-06 guitars are 54 years old I will be 111. By then I will be relegated to playing a parlor or uke as the space in a coffin can be a little cramped.  :humour:

I agree. It will push the price down if anything. The original patina and all that.

Quote from: hatofthecat on June 06, 2007, 11:41:41 AM
Bone saddles & nuts, better tuners, ebony pins and pegs are all reversal "enhancements".... glossing is a one way trip unfortunately  :doh

Theortically, one could de-gloss.

Quote from: noyage on June 06, 2007, 06:17:44 PM
Theortically, one could de-gloss.

Maybe, but I'd like to see it done and it would actually be even less original than the "glossed" guitar(more finish would be gone)

"Well, I have seen several 03 series guitars for sale here that I have been interested in. But as soon as I see they have been polished, I move on. I like the satin finish on the 03 series and do not want one that has been polished."

I did the same thing...passed on a polished one....bought a non polished one. Although I think the polished one look nice.

:donut :donut2 :donut

If I had to guess, I'd guess that in 30 years the most valuable Larrivees are likely to be the upper end ones, and the maybe the rarer 03's.  I personally prefer gloss to satin, so if the job is done well I'd still be interested.  My guess is the difference between a well done glossed 03 and a stock satin won't be too great in 30 years.  In fact, since satin doesn't tend to wear well in my experience, the well glossed one might "age" better, in looks, if not in sound and value.  Fact is, I'm considering an 03 12 string right now.  The fact they are satin is the only negative, to me.  As for what I'd do, if it was mine, I'd have it the way I want it and enjoy it for the next 30 years.  Preserving a guitar in a condition you're less than happy with just in case it MIGHT be worth more that way just wouldn't be worth it to me.  But, if you're really concerned, why not get one to preserve in pristine condition and another to do what you want to?

I prefer satin on a used 03 series.  That said, I got an om03 here about a year ago that was "polished" but not glossed.  The previous owner said he didn't like the "swoosh" sound made but his arm brushing against the guitar and stopped after "step 1" of the Orsino method.  The look it still matte but it's smooth to the touch which I relly like.  He left the top satin which is an absolute deal breaker for me.  If the top's been polished, I move on.  My OM03 is the best playing Larrivee I've ever owned.  I daresay I'd keep it over the L09Koa I recently got.

It's a buyers' preference.   Some folks like satin.  Some not.  By glossing a satin guitar you'll lose the folks who like satin while appealing to those who might like a quality glossed -03 at a reasonable price.

I've glossed four guitars.  Sold three.  Glossing didn't influence their selling price at all.  I do think that glossing increased the appeal and interest in the sale of all three.  In one of those instances, I sold the guitar for $200 more than I paid for it.

It just depends on who's buying and what their preferences are. . . . like anything else.

Regarding how a glossed satin guitar will be accepted or rejected in a few years . .   It's hard to know but I suspect it won't be such a big deal. 

I guess I'll chime in and say that I prefer original on guitars and I wouldn't buy a polished one either, ...unless it was a really good deal.  So if you are considering the impact of price on selling a polished 03, there are many responses that here that tell you price may be affected and you're total potential buyers will be less.

Glass that 03 if it makes you happy. While you're at it, get some signatures, bumper stickers or whatever melts your butter. OTOH, I would pass on a customized 03 that's for sale.

I've bought a couple glossed 03s, and sold them too, with no more problems than any other Larrivees I've sold. My only concern would be that it was done well. If it is, I consider it a plus but wouldn't pay extra. Judging from the ones I've sold, it doesn't affect the price one way or the other.

Very intersting discussion....being the recent recipient of a polished 03BW I can say that I'm very happy with it...it really brings out the depth in the wood that wouldn't be there in a satin model.  I got a decent deal on the guitar and ain't looking back.  I'm also not terribly concerned with resale value...as long as I can get out of it what I put into it I will be happy....assuming I ever decide to sell it...which I can't see happening right now... :whistling:

here is the obligatory eye candy.... :wink:

(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k285/csabick/CUback.jpg)

:cheers

Blue

Quote from: Blue in VT on June 07, 2007, 03:39:10 PM


(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k285/csabick/CUback.jpg)

Must you post those pictures Blue?    :drool: :drool: :drool:


I'll get you later...I'll take some new photos of my all mahogany parlor that I buffed!!! 

Does polishing a satin guitar void manufactures warranty???? :?

Quote from: Johnny Canso on June 07, 2007, 07:20:00 PM
Does polishing a satin guitar void manufactures warranty???? :?

Yes, but just on the finish.

Quote from: whiskeyjack on June 07, 2007, 01:38:11 AM
It's a buyers' preference... Glossing didn't influence their selling price at all.  I do think that glossing increased the appeal and interest in the sale of all three...
It just depends on who's buying and what their preferences are. . .

I had the same experience with my recently-sold rosewood parlor. Glossing gave it a slightly "higher-end" appearance. I got what I paid for it.

Quote
Regarding how a glossed satin guitar will be accepted or rejected in a few years . .   It's hard to know but I suspect it won't be such a big deal. 

I agree... If you start with a great sounding guitar, take good care of it and it lasts 30 years - there will be a market for it... or you'll want to keep it and hand it on to a deserving guitarist. With Larrivee guitars, you have well-built, great-sounding, quality instruments. If you don't wreck it structurally or have it signed in magic marker by all the members of N'Sync...  :wink:
...it will only improve with age and retain its value - gloss or satin.

dg

In my humble opinion....
Buying new guitars for investment is risky & not recommended.
Buying entry level guitars for this purpose is fool's work. 3,000,000 guitars a year are coming out of Asia now. CF Martin is cranking out 70,000/yr. One might argue that there is a glut of guitars out there. Our great-grandchildren will be finding these guitars in the attic as we now dream of doing. But with so many, will they even care? I certainly do not claim to know.
There is an inclination among many guitarists today to avoid the bling. Real collectors are buying custom shop, high-end instruments tricked out by the likes of Larry Robinson and Grit Laskin. Many guitarists find these instruments to be gawdy, even hideous.
These guitars weren't really built to be "players", they are works of art and designed to represent the pinnicle of the luthiers' work. They'll end up at Christies or Sotheby's and command inter-galactic prices.
An 03 is a good guitar for playing. Its not a good choice for investment. Not likely to end up in a museum. If you want it polished, go ahead and polish it.
Finally, almost any modification you make to almost any vintage [fill in the blank: cars, guitars, antiques] will force the collectors' value of it downward. Paintings do get cleaned, as one possible exception, but even numismatists will tell you not to polish a tarnished coin.

Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2007, 09:54:47 AM
Buying new guitars for investment is risky & not recommended.
Buying entry level guitars for this purpose is fool's work.

I agree with you completely. I wasn't really talking about investment in the grander sense. For purposes of this discussion, I'm using the term "investment" as "initial expenditure" - the money you invest in the instrument whether it is new or used. It makes sense, at any rate, to take good care of any guitar you buy. After buying (and then selling) hundreds of guitars over the last 4 decades - and getting half or less of that money back, I found that buying a better-quality guitar gives you a better chance of re-couping (or exceeding) your initial expenditure, whether it's a year or several years later.

Quote
...One might argue that there is a glut of guitars out there. Our great-grandchildren will be finding these guitars in the attic as we now dream of doing. But with so many, will they even care?

From the late 50's to the early 70's, there was also a glut of guitars from Sears, Kay, Harmony etc. and for the most part, whether they were cheapos or made by Gibson, Martin or Fender, I suspect they were shabbily treated and ended up suitable for kindling or as land-fill. The same is bound to happen to many of today's guitars, since today's culture seems to be one of "disposable everything" - at least more so than previous generations.

QuoteAn 03 is a good guitar for playing. Its not a good choice for investment.

... that said, if you buy it used and in good condition and you take good care of it, you have a good chance of getting your money back (or even making a profit).

dg

Quote from: Queequeg on June 10, 2007, 09:54:47 AM
An 03 is a good guitar for playing. Its not a good choice for investment. Not likely to end up in a museum. If you want it polished, go ahead and polish it.

Good advice, you convinced me to do what I really want to it... cover it in velvet! I'm thinking of doing the whole body in royal purple velvet. I could install some neon lights in it and have a mini disco ball that hangs right inside the soundhole when I play. Talk about sexy! :SHK>

jeremy

a one of a kind elvis 03 should, in fact, increase in value if not live forever!  can't wait to see the pics.  idea on the impact velvet has on the sound quality?

jeff

Quote from: dgrose on June 10, 2007, 03:17:44 PMFrom the late 50's to the early 70's, there was also a glut of guitars from Sears, Kay, Harmony etc. and for the most part, whether they were cheapos or made by Gibson, Martin or Fender, I suspect they were shabbily treated and ended up suitable for kindling or as land-fill. The same is bound to happen to many of today's guitars, since today's culture seems to be one of "disposable everything" - at least more so than previous generations.

The idea that something won't be an investment since it's commonplace isn't always true.  Look at the prices of restored Ford Model T cars; they were the pinnacle of "common" automobiles in their day, but a well-restored model is almost guaranteed to command a five figure price now (not bad considering these cars were sold for as little as $290 brand new in their day).  While that may not be a great investment on the surface, it does suggest that commonplace items may, in fact, become entirely collectable if given enough time.

The idea of something being an investment is entirely proportional to the initial amount invested.  I bought my 7 year old Larrivee parlor (rosewood/spruce) in absolutely mint condition (with hard case) for $450.  It's a sound investment not because it's a particularly rare or desirable model, but rather because I could sell it and recuperate my initial investment at the drop of a hat.  True, I won't get rich off of this guitar, but it represents a better value than, say, a new Takemine or Yamaha at the same price, that would depreciate in value the moment it leaves the showroom.  (that's not meant as a dig against Tak or Yamaha, of course - I'm just picking a few brands with comparably priced new guitars for comparison).

The original thread was about whether or not to polish a satin finished guitar.  My thought on that is to *never* alter a guitar like that.  Repeated playing may indeed "polish" a spot on the soundboard, but I consider that different than deliberately altering the appearance of the guitar.  I'm a big believer in keeping things as "original" as possible, and this extends into many other parts of my life (I will not, for instance, install aftermarket parts on my automobiles).

I say this as a bit of a hypocrite; there's an autographed Fender acoustic hanging on my wall.  The autograph was as deliberate of an alteration as polishing, and there's no doubt that its intrinsic value as an old Fender guitar (minimal as that may be) has been forever altered.  I chose to do this because the guitar has enough cracks in the soundboard to render it virtually useless, and the guitar itself was never really that great to begin with (it's a Fender Shenandoah 12 string - not Fender's finest period of guitarmaking).

In the end, of course, it's everyone's own choice what to do with their guitar.  If polishing the guitar enhances your enjoyment, then full-steam-ahead with the polishing wheel!

-- Mike

Jeremy2330 wrote:
"You convinced me to do what I really want to it... cover it in velvet! I'm thinking of doing the whole body in royal purple velvet. I could install some neon lights in it and have a mini disco ball that hangs right inside the soundhole when I play. Talk about sexy! "

Yeah, and now that I don't have to worry about the state it's in in 30 years, I'm gonna paint "This Machine Kills......" (I'll think of something) all over the front of it in big letters!

Quote from: sayheyjeff on June 10, 2007, 08:11:29 PM


idea on the impact velvet has on the sound quality?

Warm and fuzzy I bet.

Quote from: mikehelms on June 10, 2007, 09:07:49 PM
The idea that something won't be an investment since it's commonplace isn't always true.

Absolutely right, Mike. The examples I indicated - Sears, Kay, Harmony etc. - were commonplace back in the day. Most have disappeared, but the survivors sell for quite a bit to those who desire them, and when someone famous uses an old Silvertone or Danelectro, seems like "everybody" wants one.

As for polishing, it may be best not to... but I just polished the back and sides of my OMV-03re. To each his (or her) own.

dg

I have a beautiful Ivers & Pond full upright piano, built in Boston, 1908.  I bought it for two hundred bucks, spent three hundred having it worked up.  It sounds amazing.  I could spend twenty five thousand on a new piano and it wouldn't sound any more beautiful.  The thing is, back in 1908, there were something in area of 75 hand built piano makers in the United States, small to large companies.  I think pianos were as common as guitars.  There was an abundence of high quality pianos.  It's probably worth a few thousand dollars, but it isn't worth 20, 30, or 50 thousand.  BTW, the finish is original.

I still believe it is a long time off before an 03 or any modern production guitar) will become a collectors item.
High end custom shop limited editions are a different story. I have a 1967 Gibson J-50, I purchased it new back then and it was less than $200.
To put that into perspective the minimum wage was 1.50 and hour. I worked the summer before college and had $400. My parents said I could spend 1/2 of it on a good guitar and put the rest into savings for college expenses. Oh how I miss the days when $200 was something. Anyway here we are 40 years later, the guitar is in mint condition. I had some work done on it a few years ago and the luthier told me he had a few collectors that were interested in my guitar and said the value to a collector would be around $3,000. To a player it might be worth $2,200. While this seems like a good return on my original investment, I have 40 years with this guitar, we are friends, it has been my companion through good times and bad. It has never let me down and always brought me joy. How can I part with it ?

So my point is, if you want to polish a guitar or make any modifications to make it more to you, do it. In 40-50 years down the road, if you are still alive, if it's worth a bunch, you won't sell it anyway.

Another alternative is some nice wax. I have an OM-03 and I used carnuba wax on it. It did not come out glossy, but looks shinnier than the satin. Since it is only wax, I am sure a good cleaning will put it back to the satin. If you wax it make sure your wax does not have silicones in it. 100% pure carnuba can be found at most fine furniture stores or woodworking supply shop.

First let me say, I have NEVER bought a guitar that I didn't intend to keep. (Although I don't look down on those that do...)

Any modifications I make to my L-03 are because I want to. I do it because it makes me enjoy the guitar more, not because I think someone else will pay me more for it. (It's kind of like putting braces on your kid in hopes that someone will pay you more for him...) My rule of thumb for upgrades is this: Is the cost of the upgrade (real and in value) worth the enjoyment you would get out of it? If yes, go for it. If no, don't. If you sell it and take "a hit", you still come out "ahead".

But buying and keeping a guitar a certain way for someone else down the road is silly. If they like a guitar a certain way, then let them buy it that way. Why should you have to put up with something because they like it that way? Play what you enjoy and enjoy what you play.

Regarding investment value, I don't think an L-03 is going to appreciate that much anyway. It's not like a Model-T, because the Model-T was revolutionary. The L-03, to be honest, is a great guitar, but it's not revolutionary. If anyone is looking for a classic Larrivee 40 years from now, they'll probably be after an L-09 or an L-10 anyway.