I'm thinking about acquiring a slope shouldered dread.  I've played Larrivees a lot over the years and my current stable has an OM-04R, an LV-03, and a Koa parlour.  I was originally thinking about a Bourgeous Slope Shouldered D, but thought I should check out members' experience with the SD-50 or the SD-60.  Any words of encouragement from those camps?  Have any members A/B'd the Bourgeois and the Larrivee?

Quote from: gevans378 on May 09, 2007, 09:29:39 AM
I'm thinking about acquiring a slope shouldered dread.  I've played Larrivees a lot over the years and my current stable has an OM-04R, an LV-03, and a Koa parlour.  I was originally thinking about a Bourgeous Slope Shouldered D, but thought I should check out members' experience with the SD-50 or the SD-60.  Any words of encouragement from those camps?  Have any members A/B'd the Bourgeois and the Larrivee?

All I can tell you is my SD-60 is the best sounding guitar I have ever played and better than most I have heard. I never heard a "Bourgeois" though. The SD-50 I have heard are awesome too, I just like rosewood.

I personally like mahogany, so I bought an SD-50 last year and it's honestly the nicest sounding guitar I've ever played (compared to high-end Taylors, Martins, Gibsons I've played over the years). I must confess that I've never played a Bourgeous and it's my understanding that they are incredible guitars with a great reputation for immaculate quality and tone. I've never read of anybody being dissapointed with Bourgeous, so I'd imagine you'd be more than happy with one. That being said. . .

Since you are wanting a slope shouldered dread, check out the archives here AS WELL AS other guitar forums and you will find that the Larrivee SD series is consistently praised as being one of the greatest slope shouldered guitars money can buy. Even my guitar tech (who is brutally honest about some of the other high-end guitars he's worked on) commented on the incredible tone and sustain as well as the quality of my SD-50. As you can probably guess, I'd highly recommend getting yourself one. I can't imagine anybody being less than thrilled.   

Quote from: PortHueneme on May 09, 2007, 10:50:11 AM
All I can tell you is my SD-60 is the best sounding guitar I have ever played and better than most I have heard. I never heard a "Bourgeois" though. The SD-50 I have heard are awesome too, I just like rosewood.

+1
You took the words right out of my keyboard, PortHueneme .  :niceguitar:

My only issue with the SD is the wide fingerboard.  I tried out an SD-50 and wanted to love it, but just couldn't get past that issue.

Check out the Santa Cruzes as well; their slope dreads are really nice  -- though if I were going to buy a slope dread myself, I'd look for a used Gibson J-45.  The ones I've seen in Toronto are generally in the same price range as a new Santa Cruz, but with much more mojo.

Mine is for sale at a great price over in Buy, Sell, Trade. :bgrin:

I have played both, but not in the same room.  My impression was that both are very nice guitars but the Larrivee is not quite in the same league as the Bourgeois. 

I have played both but not at the same store.  Also played a Collings slope that was great.  

I have a Bourgeois Vintage-D that I really enjoy.  I believe that the SD is a little wider than my 000-50.

Enjoy what you get.

Quote from: ElJefe on May 09, 2007, 06:58:01 PM
I believe that the SD is a little wider than my 000-50.

That's right.  The 000s are 1-3/4", and I believe the SD is 1-7/8".

I would say try before you buy with the SD.  If you like the extra width, great.

I'm another one that wanted to really love the SD-50 I played.  But the neck width did me in.  I'm a wimp.   :smile:

Bourgeois are very, very fine guitars.  I've played a number of them over the years.  The one issue I have with them is the neck angle.  That angle causes the saddle to be very high.  At least in my opinion.  Obviously the folks at Bourgeois don't think so. 

Besides those two, I'd also suggest looking at a Huss and Dalton slope D.  The one I've tried could most pickers happy.

Or a Martin Ditson Model 111 Special Edition.  I was able to play the prototype.   :drool:  Also had a 1 7/8" nut.  But the sound was huge.  The biggest sound I've ever heard from a new guitar.  I don't say it too lightly.  I've played a lot over the years.  This one was scary good.  Luckily, I could never afford one.

One of the interesting things about the extra width on the SD is that it seems to me that it makes it impossible to do fast flat-picking on those guitars.

If I were ever to buy a slope D, it would be to try to do Norman Blake-type stuff.  But I can only barely do cross-picking as it is on a normal dreadnought, and on my OM, forget it; the extra width between the strings just makes it that much harder for me.  So it would basically be impossible for me to cross-pick on an SD.

Quote from: Tycho on May 09, 2007, 10:24:47 PM
One of the interesting things about the extra width on the SD is that it seems to me that it makes it impossible to do fast flat-picking on those guitars.

If I were ever to buy a slope D, it would be to try to do Norman Blake-type stuff.  But I can only barely do cross-picking as it is on a normal dreadnought, and on my OM, forget it; the extra width between the strings just makes it that much harder for me.  So it would basically be impossible for me to cross-pick on an SD.

Norman didn't seem to think the width was a problem as he bought a couple SDs.

Quote from: rpg51 on May 09, 2007, 06:57:42 PM
I have played both, but not in the same room.  My impression was that both are very nice guitars but the Larrivee is not quite in the same league as the Bourgeois. 

That may be true as Bourgeois guitars are "tap-toned" from what I hear.  That is, the braces are shaved and shaped to get the right resonances for the builder.  More attention to detail, so to speak.  Rightly so then it should cost A LOT more money.

I have played two of them and one was incredible and the other, a slope shoulder dread like the SD-50, was tight-sounding and not super. 

So you just have to get out and play them.  BTW, my SD-50 is a great guitar.

I ended up with a Gibson Vintage AJ from 95.I tried to like the SD but it just was to wide.

For the record, I am a large man with big fingers.  That being said, my SD would be the second thing that I grab if my house ever caught on fire.  It really stopped GAS, and I have found nothing that would make me sell or replace.  That being said, you need to like the wide fret board (which was one of the reasons that I bought it, other than the kick butt tone).  It is not, however, my flatpicking guitar (yet) but I have the OMV 60 for that!  You cant go wrong with the SD  :thumb even without letting price enter the decision.

Quote from: Novalis on May 10, 2007, 12:00:38 AM
Norman didn't seem to think the width was a problem as he bought a couple SDs.

But Norman's a better player than I am.   :bgrin:

Quote from: Tycho on May 10, 2007, 10:01:27 AM
But Norman's a better player than I am.   :bgrin:

I heard he got rid of them, too.

Norman seems to do a lot of buying, so I'm guessing he does a lot of selling as well.

If you can find it, and fit it... a 12 fret D is pretty amazing.... be it from Larrivee, SCGC, H&D, Collings, or Martin....

My choice has been Martin tho.. i have two, one sitka/mahog, one sitka/rosewood.... happy happy happy sounds emenate from their general direction daily.....

Ta,

d.

Sounds like the deciding factor in liking or disliking the SD series is the neck width. If one is used to narrow necks, it might take some getting used to, or maybe one won't ever get used to it. I spent a LOT of time considering the pros and cons and played a few classical guitars at the local shops to get an idea of what I was getting into and if I could get used to the extra width. I read an article convincing me of the benefits of playing a 1 7/8" neck by one of my favorite (and not very well known) fingerstyle players Chris Proctor that nailed home the point:

You can read the whole article at: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/411/cp_praise.html

"I'm also a strong advocate of having the extra wide, 1-7/8-inch neck to complete the package (in this article, all neck-width references are measured at the nut). The Grand Concerts and Grand Auditoriums normally come with a 1-3/4-inch neck width, but I like to push that advantage even further. The fingerstyle guitarist needs a string spacing that allows for separate voices to be played with equal ease with both right and left hands, and the wider neck liberates the player to do just that.

Remember, when a classical player buys a guitar, he or she is given only one neck-width choice: two inches. It's not a hand-size issue, it's a utility-of-use issue. Classical players need the spacing described above for the same reasons that the steel-string instrumentalist needs it. In spite of the 1/8-inch difference between them, Taylor's 1-7/8-inch neck is almost exactly equivalent to the classical two-inch neck in the actual spacing of the strings, because steel strings have thinner diameters than nylon strings.

It's long been a popular, but flawed, belief that only people with big hands should play wide-neck guitars. To refute that thesis, and to fully appreciate that the moving lines and gymnastic chord forms used by the fingerstylist are much more achievable with wider string spacing than they would be on those narrower necks, you need only consider the small hands and stubby, sausage-like fingers of the late virtuoso, Andres Segovia"

The comment on Segovia nailed it for me.

QuoteIt's long been a popular, but flawed, belief that only people with big hands should play wide-neck guitars. To refute that thesis, and to fully appreciate that the moving lines and gymnastic chord forms used by the fingerstylist are much more achievable with wider string spacing than they would be on those narrower necks, you need only consider the small hands and stubby, sausage-like fingers of the late virtuoso, Andres Segovia"

I have short fingers, I had some concerns about the SD neck. I was playing a Gibson J-50,(1967) with a short scale and very narrow neck.
It took an adjustment period (about 10 minutes) to fall in love with the wide neck on the SD. The note separation on the wide neck is unbelievable.
Everything about the SD is amazing, the voice, the beauty, the playability and the price.

The only guitar I have heard or played that I thought was better is a friends early 60's Martin 12 fret slothead. His is Brazilian RW and has 40 years of playing time. I am only guessing when the Larrivee is 40 years old it will sound like his Martin does now.

Remember to classical guitar fret boards are usually flat too, making them feel different than a steel string.

I am a proud owner of a custom Martin HD 28VS which features a 'Modified V' 1&3/4" neck with a 12 frets to the body slot-head. Couldn't resist posting a pic:
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/oldneil/Martin%20pics/HDVS2.JPG)
Its the closest thing to the Larriveé SD series. I've also played an SD50 (lovely tobacco sunburst  :thumbsup ) and an SD60. Loved them both. All three guitars make surprisingly good finger pickers considering their imposing size.

WOW Old Neil

I bet that guitar sounds as good as it looks.  Bet it's a lot pricier than my SD tho'  If I was a collector of  slope shouldered guitars then one like that Martin would have to be on my list.

Congratulations - did you order it from the custom shop?

Thanks Hal,
And yes, that was a custom order. The main tonal altering difference is an Italian Alpine spruce top. It gives a rounder, sweeter punch to the attack and makes it a great finger picker.
I included it by way of comparison to the original question regarding the SD. both the 50 and 60 are great guitars. Larriveés and Martins have fundamentally different tonal signatures though even in a similar body shape. If money were no object I could easily add at least the mahogany SD50 to complement the rosewood Martin. I'm warming to the Larriveé clean sound with that quick attack and a sustain that doesn't get too 'busy' when a lot of notes are played at once.
Of course I love that Martin richness and complexity with an unbeatable bottom end but hey, why not have both?  :beer
A friend will be picking up a custom D 05 this summer so I'm looking forward to swapping back and forth.

Quote from: Old Neil on May 14, 2007, 05:43:15 PM
I'm warming to the Larriveé clean sound with that quick attack and a sustain that doesn't get too 'busy' when a lot of notes are played at once.

The not getting busy is a great description. I really like the clean sound of my SD. I have always enjoyed the clean voice of my D-09 12, I never attributed to the "Larrivee sound"

Neil, I'm one of those people who like music far more than I like instruments; as long as it sounds good, I couldn't care less about which name is on the peghead. But I have to say that HD-28VS of yours is one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen.

This is great thread everyone...

I am another that was not able to get used to the wide nut width and thicker neck profile.  I had an 000-60 with the 1 13/16" nut, and it sounded great but I couldn't get used to the wider nut.  Here's the problem:  I have been drooling  :drool: over the mahogany top SD in tobacco sunburst at guitar adoptions for some time...it would be the perfect big brother to my P-05MT TSB.  The sunburst over a mahogany top is one of the most stunning looking things you could imagine.  I'm a recent convert to MT larrivees and the SD-50MT is the ultimate mahogany guitar in my mind...but the wide nut snaps me back to reality.  I know I would end up being unhappy with the wide nut, so I have to keep my credit card in the wallet.  It's not easy to control myself!  :cop:

Regarding the wide nut on the SD series: YES, at first chords like a G7 were a challenge. . . UNTIL I took a look at some youtube videos and photos of pros who play with even wider necks (e.g. classical guitars with 2") and looked at their technique. I realized that MAYBE I should start to play the "traditionally proper" way, with my thumb in the middle of the back of the neck, like most professional teachers and musicians do and spent a few weeks of playing with my thumb on the back of the neck and then . . .VOILLA!. . .  No more problems or concerns with any chords. And now I sound, and play, a hell of a lot better than I did when I played with my thumb hanging around the sixth string.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that there's only one "right way" to play, everybody has their own style. But FOR ME, this dramatic change in technique made all the difference in my ability to get the most out of my SD. I knew before I bought it that the extra width would take a little getting used to, yet I definately wanted a 1 7/8" for blues fingerpicking (as most of my blues "heroes" played with these wide necks).

Anybody else here with an SD (or a Larrivee 000 for that matter) find that it's much, much, easier to play when using the "proper" technique of keeping the thumb on the back of the neck? Until I changed my technique, I thought the width might be an issue, but now I'm completely in love with the note seperation, ease of playing, and tone I feel is in part responsible from the wide neck. Before I bought my SD, I spent at most a couple of hours of week playing guitar; now that I have my SD-50, I spend at least an hour a day. 

QuoteDon't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that there's only one "right way" to play, everybody has their own style. But FOR ME, this dramatic change in technique made all the difference in my ability to get the most out of my SD.

When I was taking lessons, me teacher strongly urged me to correct a lifetime's worth of bad habits and start playing that way.  (So now I do...sometimes.)  He said you can still change position and bend your thumb around the neck when you want to use your thumb in a chord shape.

Re: neckwidth 
     My fingertips are like this hair :ph34r:. I used to play 12 string exclusively, then I quit for 20 years. When I decided to start playing again I played the 12 for a couple months then bought my Guild dread with 1 11/16" nut. I was pretty good on the twelve but when I switched to the narrow neck I had a heluva time getting my fingers between the strings (read buzzing muffled sound), but with time and a lot of practice I got better (notice I didn't say good). When I bought my Larrivee with 1 3/4" nut I couldn't believe the difference a 1/16" could make. It is so much easier to play but I could probably use even more room (read there is always room for another guitar :winkin:).

     As far as switching back and forth between guitars? I think playing guitar, like anything that requires dexterity involves muscle memory, in other words your fingers get used to moving in to exact positions with a particular instrument and when you change to a different width or length  neck it takes an adjustment period. What that period is, could be different for everyone but I think anyone can adjust given time, but not necessarily the time you might spend trying out  guitars at a music store. This statement does not include professionals, I'm referring to the mainstream type of person that has trouble hitting a drive then immediately following it up with a 5 iron (two different length clubs and two different swing motions) The point being if you practice enough you can get good at anything and adapt quickly.

     Sorry for the golf analogies but here I go again, I think equipment is an important aspect in improving skill level and I am guilty of the following example. You're having trouble with your driver so you go out and buy a new one and practice 20 or 30 hours with it and get it down really good. The fact is if you had practiced that much with your old club you would have gotten better with that one. But you didn't, either one of two things happened to get that new club to work. 1- it inspired you to practice so you could show off your new club to your friends and maybe not have to be the one buying the beer after the round :cheers. 2- you spent $600 for that new club and damm-it it's going to work :mad:.

    In short, some of us buy new guitars for inspiration to improve and some of us buy new guitars because (fill in your reason here). As far as GAS, I've had it for a very long time, it just gets harder to hold it in as you get older :roll


After listening to me ramble your probably hungry so here  :donut :donut :donut2 :coffee :donut2 :donut :coffee :donut2 :coffee :donut2 :donut

Have a nice day,

     Roger

QuoteNeil, I'm one of those people who like music far more than I like instruments; as long as it sounds good, I couldn't care less about which name is on the peghead. But I have to say that HD-28VS of yours is one of the most beautiful guitars I've ever seen.

Thanks Freefall,
Apparently someone else thought so too. Some photos of mine are featured in the Custom section of myfavoriteguitars.com and someone saw it and asked Jon Garon if they could get the full spec sheet so they could order one of their own! Flattering if not very original. I spent a lot of time, thought and, needless to say, money in the details of that design.
Anyway, back to the SD's: I was pleasantly surprised by how comfortable the 1 & 7/8" neck is. I prefer these 'half a baseball bat' necks and have included one (albeit at 1 & 3/4") on my latest Martin custom that arrived last week.  :cheers
I think I prefer that full shaped to the 'Modified V' Martin offer in a lot of their 'Vintage' and 'Golden Era' series. These big Larriveés are somewhere in between as they are large and full necks but a touch flatter at the back. 'Naahs' as Borat would say...

Neil,

I'm another wide-neck guy. The article you offered from Chris Procter was a major influence in my purchasing my 712ce Taylor with the 1 7/8 neck (now for sale on this forum). I went from a 12 string, to classical/flamenco and was looking for something to replace the 12 string. The Taylor wide neck is just about the same as the 12 string, and the string spacing is almost identical to my classicals, just like Chris notes.

I do believe that another factor is the shape of the neck. The Larrivee necks, to my feel, are just a tad more of a handful that the Taylor necks. I had a MartIn 000 12 fret with a 1 3/4 nut that was way to small. Sold it an bought a Larrivee 000-50 (1 13/16).  Heaven to my muscle memory and it's beefier neck adds just the right amount of filler for my style of playing. I also do not wrap my thumb, and that makes a big difference.

Just my 2 cents, and thanks for the interesting thread.

Gary

Novalis --- I follow your thoughts here about changing playing position of the thumb on the neck.  I guess if I really worked at it I could get proficient with the "wide" neck of the SD or 000.  I started playing on thin Gibson necks and always loved them, until I found 1 3/4" nut on the Larrivees...perfect!  It's the best of both worlds as a nut size IMO, fingers or flatpick it just works well.  The 000-60 sounded killer, but the neck just felt to chunky in my hands.  I guess where I really get hindered by it is not in holding/changing chords, but in getting fluid runs.  Man, I want that SD and I'm thinking about selling two guitars to afford it, but the wide nut has me doubting. 

You know, when you have to use something to get a job done because it's all you got, you eventually learn how to use it well if you're determined.  The wide nut of the SD should be no different.  I guess if I want it bad enough, I'll HAVE to learn how to play it, right? :?

jwb --- Just to offer a little bit of my experience. I recently acquired an SD-50, prior to which I've been playing on an L, a Parlor, and another regular slim neck guitar. Just wanna say that it hasn't been much of an issue playing the SD-50 for me. I switch around and give each guitars distributed playing too, no problems there. I can hardly feel much of a difference, it's not that drastic to be honest. You don't have to feel like you need to go through boot camp to get accustomed to the SD-50. Hope that helps to remove some of your concerns.

By the way, I'm a skinny, 5-11 man... You know, just to add some light to this little discussion. :smile:

Do not doubt the SD-50, my friend.

I just traded a SD50 for a L05E. I couldn't handle the width of the neck either.  :donut :donut :donut

Now I'm wondering something: I've played a skinny neck for 25 years, then last fall got myself the SD-50 from Gayl at Betterbilt Fretted Products. At first the neck felt a little wide but not uncomfortable. It didn't take long to get used to it and now that extra room is SOOO nice.  I love the way this guitar feels and sounds (especially now that I set it up for lights).

So here is what I'm wondering: since I don't have large hands, I wonder why doesn't the neck feel too wide to me? I read that some other folks who probably play a hell of a lot better than me (and know more about guitars) had issues with the neck feeling too wide. Yes, 1 7/8" is noticeably different feeling than a 1 11/16" or even 1 3/4", this is especially noticeable when playing a G7. But all in all, I can't ever see myself selling this guitar, it just sounds and feels too great. It feels wider than my othe guitars, but certainly not uncomfortably so.

It might just be a matter of getting used to it.  I've never played an SD for more than a couple of minutes in a store.

Quote from: Tycho on June 17, 2007, 10:22:08 AM
It might just be a matter of getting used to it.  I've never played an SD for more than a couple of minutes in a store.

When I got my SD-60 I was amazed and bewildered by the wide neck. I was in love with the guitar at first strum because of the voice. It is one of the BEST sounding guitars I have ever heard and it is still new. The neck was a concern, but I found it easy to adjust to. I also have a 12 string so I am used to switching between necks. Maybe folks who only have one guitar (I know there are some out there with will power and able to fight G.A.S.) have a difficult time switching. I found after a few sessions the wide neck was a non-issue. I also have never had an issue witht eh 12 fret neck.

One thing is for sure, if you play an SD (50 or 60) for any length of time you are going to be spoiled. I can't imagine how mine is going to sound as it opens up.

Like Neil... i can't resist either ;-)

First up is the sitka/mahog Martin custom;
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/more%20guitars/12-fret-d.jpg)

and next is the  sitka/rosewood Martin custom (with some of Peter Cree's amazing artwork on the headstock!);
(http://www.voguehost.com/ims/u/dermot/more%20guitars/s_above.jpg)

Both are 1 & 3/4, lo-pro.. but i do play a 32' Dobro with a 1 & 7/8 deep V, and a classical & a flaminco, both with 2" with flat back necks.. at the other end of the scale a Guild f20 with a tiny 1 & 5/8's is in rotation often.....

A weird thing i have noticed.. what ever neck was on the guitar i worked a piece up in, is what i am most comfortable playing that piece with..... i can never play some things a cleanly as on the orignal neck style... but that said i do not find any diffrence between the Martin 1 & 3/4 LoPro and the Larrivee 1 & 3/4 on my OM19..... i switch between them with out noticing ANY diffrence atall

YMMV.....

d.

Gotta love that headstock Dermot!  :thumbsup

I played a thin 1-11/16 dread for over 35 years before switching to the Larrivee SD-50. (I'm too far gone now to ever go back.) My hands don't feel big, but other folks insist they are. Nevertheless the wide nut intimidated me. Took three trips to play it in the store before I dropped the dough and brought it home. While the proper technique is, of course, to place your thumb behind the neck rather than around it, which is why one's hand size shouldn't correlate to their nut size, I'm a thumb wrapper kind of player and so have developed quite the callous (and often painful pressure point) on the outside of my thumb joint.

I have since discovered the reason why this is so, and the remedy to fix it. Larrivee CNC's his necks – that is, they are cut to shape six at a time by a computer guided machine – and then the fretboards are glued on. This techniques creates a ridge where the two pieces meet, which actually makes the neck feel bigger than it really is, and that ridge is causing my thumb grief. I realized this was so when I played a 1-7/8 hand carved neck that felt much smaller and did not pinch the pressure point I've developed on my thumb. Whether your mind can tell the difference or not, your body can sense the most minute tolerances in such things.

What makes a hand made neck feel better in the hand is that once the desired shape and overall thickness has been achieved with a spoke shave, you then sand the neck to its final dimensions. And you do so with a piece of belt paper with a shoe shining motion, which keeps the radius of the neck true right to the top edge of the fretboard thus eliminating the ridge where it was glued on.

Once I have a second instrument to play (either the neck reset on my Tak or finish building the  one I'm working on now) I'm going to perform this technique on my SD-50. Shouldn't take more than an hour to get the result I'm after, but the refinishing is going to be tricky. Haven't decided to respray it, or attempt to blend a French polish into the finish on the heel and headstock - but I'm leaning towards the latter procedure, which will take at least a week between coats and to allow for a final hardening. And I'll be able to add to it or allow it to wear to my heart's content over the coming years. I'll let ya'll know how it goes.