Hey, I am not trying to start any debate about guitar brands or talk about specific prices. But, I recently had a very interesting discussion with a guitar shop owner in a neighboring state about Taylor, Martin and Larrivee new guitar sales. He told me that with the discounts consumers demand, he isn't sure how long a company like Larrivee can keep producing quality guitars. He also admitted that online superstores affect his business, but he thinks his service can make up for that.
He pointed to the low prices of used guitars and thinks that the public expects "everything to be a deal" when it comes to used guitars. I told him that some guitars hold their vlaue better than others, in my opinion.
He told me that Gibson doesn't really move on their pricing, while Martin, Taylor and Larrivee are always discounted. Now, I have seen Gibsons discounted before, so I don't know about this.
What do you all think? Have we come to expect too much discount for a new guitar? Does that affect used prices, which seem to continue to fall.
Anyway, if this topic is against the forum rules Steve has my permission to zap it. I just appreciate the quality of a Larrivee, Martin, Taylor and Gibson.
--Fred

In all reality the stores need to make 35% make up on wholesale to stay in business.This pays all the bills and maybe a little bit of profit.Most guitar prices are hurt by online shops and ebay.Stores can't buy or trade used because of ebay so they don't have the stock they use to.Not to be a profit of doom but one day you will only see big box and online store's with no service or customer support.The stores that are holding there own have very few employee's or no employee's.They do offer customer support but this doesn't pay the bills.I do repairs for 3 stores here in town and people also want a discount on repairs.I personally can't discount my prices and I don't.This does pinch the wallet.Think about it next time you want to make a store match and online price or when you walk in and say "I can get that used on ebay for a better price".As I tell people buy it.I know stores that want to charge double my price to fix bad ebay purchased guitars that need fixin.


I'll go back to my cave now.

The -03 series is still made in Canada, while the -05 and -09 are made in California. I wouldn't want to see prices for the -03 force a move to China. I think they are fairly priced now, and I certainly wouldn't want to see Larrivee add an Asian "value" line under the -03.

However, MSRP was considered the "sucker" price long before anybody outside of the DOD and academia had heard of the internet. Nobody in the know has ever paid retail for a guitar unless it was something particularly rare and desirable. Rich working musicians are a rarity. I'm sure the internet hasn't helped matters, though.

I agree that the internet has fundamentally changed the used market. Traditionally, trade-in was about 50% of the expected resale value. Ebay and etc has narrowed the spread, which benefits both private buyers and sellers. GAS was far more painful in the old days, when it involved coffee grounds. As a result, I now see very few used guitars in retail shops, and even trade-ins are probably sold on Ebay most of the time. With the notable exception of some places like Elderly, I suspect that the margins on used equipment have become so narrow that it isn't worth the cost of carrying the inventory.

I do think Walmart and the like has, overall, had a devastating effect on the economy, and many things are priced ridiculously low. Also, as much as I hate to say this, in some ways I think we would be much better off if oil and raw material prices went way up. When you think about it, it's absurd that it's cheaper to ship goods halfway around the world (burning lots of non-renewable oil) than to produce them locally, and that it's usually cheaper to replace than to repair.

I realize that Japan and China are very different places and cultures (I've been to both), but for the moment I'll use Japan as an example. Japanese woodworkers have a reputation for excellence, and I don't see a thing wrong with certain Japanese guitars (classical) and tools being sought after and imported for their unique attributes and quality. So, I have no objection to the importation of Chinese goods when they bring something to the table other than just a disposable price.

On the other hand, demanding Walmart pricing for everything is suicidal.

Even with the big online dealers, and I know many on this forum provide great service at a hard to beat price, I still opt to purchase my Larriveé's from a local ma and pop store due to the personal factor.  I know that no matter what I drive 20 minutes and he is there to help me in any way even if its just a quick adjustment.  I dont mind paying in all reality 200 maybe 300 more in a local store as opposed to ordering online.  If my Larriveé dealer went under, there wouldn't be one around cept for maybe an 2 hour drive.

As for the market for new and used guitars, it like all fluctuates.  Some years the gap is greater some it is less, it just all depends on the demand for folks and there in-quenchable G.A.S.

It seemed Larrivees carried less  resale at some local shops, but they also cost less for what you get locally (all speaking of my area that's a larger city with those touching its borders and near all being about 500,000 person metro area). I patronize the Guitar Center somewhat because it's close and at times has selection and loss leaders that pretty much close the deal. That said my Larrivee came from a small central city shop that does mostly repair and their merchandise no matter what brand is just superior because of the condition and prices are fair. I got a Telecaster a month ago and spent a month shopping for electrics. In that case Guitar Center's prices were higher and their stock was in miserable shape. The Tele came from about a 100 year old local firm that sells anything musical - pianos, band instruments, ochestral and sheet music etc.... It was impossible to not get both the best copy of that model in the area that was also $50 less. I'd have paid $50 more for that specific guitar too because it just played the best. If anybody is hurting in my area it could be another local retailer where they focus on guitars, drums and lessons and market with slightly higher prices and then have periodic sales.

Bottom line for my metro area: Two local sellers of guitars seem to be doing just fine and it seems to be because of service. If you look at Guitar Center's stock price and my local store there is no mystery because it appears they have to give it away. I think another local player relies heavily on their lessons.

I'm compelled to respond with my opinion on this but I have to give back ground first.  It's based on an experience with a local store from which I bought a new Larrivee DV-03R in around 2002.  I had bought my first Larrivee on Ebay used at a great price and in flawless condition. I think I paid about 70% of what a new one cost at the time including shipping. It was one of the older ones with the black body binding but it played and sounded great.  No, it was not a comfortable experience. 

Well, I got gas for rosewood and a cutaway so low and behold, there is a new one in this shop for double what I paid for the D03 used.  This shop only sells high end guitars and amps:  Taylor, Larrivee, Santa Cruz, Tom Andersen, PRS, Mesa, etc. and he's been in business over a decade even with a Guitar Center three miles away that came into town only about three years ago.

I try to talk him down on the guitar and he won't budge.  It's "the last one in the store and they are not making any more of the 3 series with a cutaway." To his credit, he did give me a good price on the D03 trade (exactly what I paid).  I pay the difference including the God awful tax and then find this forum and all the great online dealers.  I discover what I should have paid and guess what?  No tax.  I should have been more savvy and done research but I learned my lesson.  Also, I was of the "play it before you buy it" mindset then.  At the time of the deal, the owner didn't want to "dig out" a new case.  I tried to push him but he got aggrivated and put the guitar in the D03 case because it was the "same thing." I know - bad sign.  I should have walked then.   I later took the guitar in for a setup and all they did was change the strings after I clearly described what I wanted.  This took 3 days. 

I say all this to say that for me I will only buy a new guitar from an online dealer - best price and the prices are all fairly similar.  A used guitar is a great deal especially, a Larrivee.  The 03 series guitars appear to hold their values better than the higher end models.  I learned how to do my own setups.  Sorry this is so long but it shaped my opinion.  I'm not going to buy an expensive guitar from a shop and pay tax when I can get the same thing online - new or used.

i will say that in canada, guitars seem to cost a whole lot more than they do online and in the states... well, i'm not sure if stores in the states have similar pricing.

however, when you save around $1K on certain guitars by shopping online... i'd say that more than justifies going online.  a bunch of my friends got their guitars from stores, and sometimes when i see the pricing available online, i wish they waited and did more research...  i know my one friend that got a larrivee om9... he could've gotten it for $1K cheaper :(

it's okay 'cause he seems rich.  i need to save my cash though.

if a store provides good service, i'm pretty sure it'll stay in business.  for example, in toronto, we got the 12th fret.  any serious musician is not going to take their guitar to long mcquades for a setup, they're probably going to take it to the 12th.  they also sell instruments all over the world through their online store, but the point is they're not bargain prices...  we have another popular music store - steve's music (i personally think the place sucks, and i got terrible service there) and it's a "local" business, but for some reason hugely popular.

how hard can setting up your guitar be?  am i missing something?  (i might be...) truss rod, adjust saddle height, clean up the fretboard and frets, intonation, what else is there?  it's fun and if you're not super picky it doesn't take that long. 

Quote from: tikabear on April 05, 2007, 07:31:18 PM
I'm compelled to respond with my opinion on this but I have to give back ground first.  It's based on an experience with a local store from which I bought a new Larrivee DV-03R in around 2002.  I had bought my first Larrivee on Ebay used at a great price and in flawless condition. I think I paid about 70% of what a new one cost at the time including shipping. It was one of the older ones with the black body binding but it played and sounded great.  No, it was not a comfortable experience. 

Well, I got gas for rosewood and a cutaway so low and behold, there is a new one in this shop for double what I paid for the D03 used.  This shop only sells high end guitars and amps:  Taylor, Larrivee, Santa Cruz, Tom Andersen, PRS, Mesa, etc. and he's been in business over a decade even with a Guitar Center three miles away that came into town only about three years ago.

I try to talk him down on the guitar and he won't budge.  It's "the last one in the store and they are not making any more of the 3 series with a cutaway." To his credit, he did give me a good price on the D03 trade (exactly what I paid).  I pay the difference including the God awful tax and then find this forum and all the great online dealers.  I discover what I should have paid and guess what?  No tax.  I should have been more savvy and done research but I learned my lesson.  Also, I was of the "play it before you buy it" mindset then.  At the time of the deal, the owner didn't want to "dig out" a new case.  I tried to push him but he got aggrivated and put the guitar in the D03 case because it was the "same thing." I know - bad sign.  I should have walked then.   I later took the guitar in for a setup and all they did was change the strings after I clearly described what I wanted.  This took 3 days. 

I say all this to say that for me I will only buy a new guitar from an online dealer - best price and the prices are all fairly similar.  A used guitar is a great deal especially, a Larrivee.  The 03 series guitars appear to hold their values better than the higher end models.  I learned how to do my own setups.  Sorry this is so long but it shaped my opinion.  I'm not going to buy an expensive guitar from a shop and pay tax when I can get the same thing online - new or used.

Had a similar experience, though I didn't buy there.  I was ready to buy the guitar and walk with it, but his price was about $300 more than what I could get the guitar for online, free shipping, no tax.  I wanted to have a good rapport with this store, and use them for lessons, strings, etc.  So I brought up the online price, and asked if he could get a little closer to it.  I got a nasty reaction, loads of attitude, and he got no sale.  Suffice it to say I bought the same model from that online store I brought up, and saved nearly $500 doing it.  And if I decide to buy another one, I'll certainly go online again.  I tried to shop with them, and didn't expect them to match the internet dealer - just clip some more off to make me feel better about the deal.  Now he's probably lost not only the percentage of the guitar sale, but no lessons, no strings, etc.  People lament the "mom and pop" stores going out of business, and I understand that and want to patronize them if at all possible.  But there comes a time when you have to compete, and getting pissed when people want to haggle isn't going to keep your doors open.  As my dad has said: "it depends on whether you want that money in your pocket or his". 

This is all great information. I think my local shops do pretty well ompeting with most online dealers, but I also understand their overhead.
When I first started playing guitar I noticed that a used shop would buy a guitar from an individual and mark it up almost double for resale. When I talked to the owner of the shop about this practice, he started to list all of his expenses in keeping the place open. It kind of turned me around.
One post on another forum really made me think when the author said the local guitar shops could disappear and then players wouldn't have the luxury of playing nice stock before they buy.
I have a lot of mixed feelings about thiis. I guess what made me really think about the whole pricing deal is when I tried to sell a Larrivee on e-Bay. Hell, I figured everybpdy did it--so can I. The first three messages I got were almost threats. Two people insulted me for asking so much for a used Larrrivee--"it's not a Martin, you know?" And another person wanted to offer me a third of my asking price "since you will never move that guitar on e-Bay." I had it listed for a very good "starting price" but it made me realize how we all look for deals and expect deals. I've talked to Unclrob a lot about this and, to his credit, he's always told me to get as much work done locally on my guitars as I can. I'm sure this advice costs him some business. But, he has been on both sides of the counter in life and he has a great perspective. He and others have given me great advice on local purchases without any hesitation.
I guess we are heading into a new era of guitar retailing. I still like the local shops and the smell of the place when I walk in.  But, the bucks are important and you have to watch what you spend on "GAS" or your spousal unit might cut off the entire "habit!"
Hmmmmmmm...Happy Friday!!! :donut :donut2 :donut :donut2

Quote from: Fredmando on April 06, 2007, 01:47:00 AM
One post on another forum really made me think when the author said the local guitar shops could disappear and then players wouldn't have the luxury of playing nice stock before they buy...

I've talked to Unclrob a lot about this and, to his credit, he's always told me to get as much work done locally on my guitars as I can...

I still like the local shops and the smell of the place when I walk in. 

This post is a great opportunity to better understand the value of maintaining relationships with your local guitar store.  I live near Toronto, and as an earlier post has mentioned, we are more than fortunate to have The 12th Fret "Guitarists' Pro Shop" in our city.  They not only maintain large inventories of quality guitars from some of the best builders in the business, but are a wealth of knowledge for everyone from beginners to pros.  I don't mind buying fron Dave and his staff as I know that the service will be there when I need advise, comments on strings, stands, and set ups over the years. 

I understand the thought process of buying on-line, and The Fret does a great deal of internet business themselves, but as unclrob rightly points out, the alternative will be to find ourselves dealing with big box stores.  Can anyone say "Guiatr Abuse Center"?

Also, for anyone trying to beat down the rates for repairs, you get what you pay for.  If the repair tech doesn't think he is worth the $$$, then maybe he's right!

jimmy

I've had friends tell me that I should offer different price levels for my repairs so I can get the money.I tell them that my rep and honour are more important then the money.
Example:
I had a store bring me a 67 J50 by Gibson.I talked to the customer and informed him that the had to replaced and that I'd have to make it.I charge $325. to hand make a bridge,he told me to just through any old bridge on weather it was rite or not.I turned down the job.I don't just through anything on a guitar.If its not rite and someone see's it and is told that I did it,I'm out of business.
Moral of the story:
Reputation is more important then money.This includes selling them and fixing them.You've got to stand behind what you do.
I can't tell you how many horror stories I've been told about buying at one place or  anyother or someone did a repair and now I need to get it repaired again because it was screwed up.

Rob, you bring up two good points there---
I can't believe someone with a classic Gibson telling a qualified tech like you to wing it and make do. He could get the "quick fix" at another shop. That really makes no sense to me. Plus,. aren't the J-50's the long saddle type like the AJ's? They have to be tough to make. That sounds like a person with a Porsche asking for the cheapest tires they can find at K-Mart.
I've sold three guitars since my "life of GAS sin" started back in 2003. Each time I had people try to haggle me down by telling me that so and so has an exact guitar for such & such price. Like one guy said on the Acoustic Forum, he tells people to keep on moving if they question his classified or e-Bay listings.
I don't think there is a quicker way to insult a good guitar player than to start chewing on the price set for a guitar. If someone is high, it won't sell. If it is too low, then it is a deal but there might be an issue with it. But, for the most part, the guitars I see for sale on the Larrivee Forum are from good people who either want to upgrade, change models or need the cash for other things in life. I personally cannot stand it when classified listings are met with crap like "oh, you better lower that price because the Guild GAD's can blow that guitar away." Or someone pointing out the problems with another person's guitar. I just don't think that is playing fair--it's a form of trolling. :yawn
i think we all know guitar shops where the prices may be a little higher than online, but look at what you get with the guitar! Plus, with a little talking, you never know how much "wiggle room" a local dealer has on a guitar.
My last point is that I have probably bought my last new Larrivee. I don't see that many serious warranty issues with them--frets  aren't  big deal and stuff like that. They are built like a rock. So, if you look at the used prices for Larry's, you might as well go used. I can't believe the prices for used Larry's lately---there simply is no better deal in the guitar world now.
Sorry this is long,  :roll
Fred

I have only purchased one guitar from an online dealer and although things went fairly smoothly, it ended up costing me much more than I ever bargained for. After shipping charges, UPS brokerage fees. taxes and finding out that the dealer charged me an extra hundred over what we had agreed on price wise (which I never got back) - it was an experience to say the least. I have bought 3 other guitars locally and I am happy with all my guitars. I am more than an hour away from the 12th Fret and I agreed with what people have already said about their quality. I have a few music stores which are closer to me than driving to Toronto - one of them being a Long & McQuade, and I shop at these stores as well. I like having a local music store and although I know I could possibly get a great deal online for an instrument I still support my local shops when I can.
- the sellers on eBay don't help out with music in the schools programs for my kids
- the online dealers don't sponsor the local bands or help out with instuments or instrument rentals
- online sellers don't sponsor the local hockey, soccer or baseball teams here either

I guess what I'm getting at is that by beating out the local shops from making any kind of profit you may end up paying a higher price. I live in a small community because I chose to do so. People here tend look out for one another and that's what I like about the place. I may pay more for some things but I get good value for my money in many more ways.
Sorry this is so long, I hope you understand what I'm trying to say here.

at the end of the day, what prevents a mom and pop/local store from also being an online dealer? it seems that in this day and age, you ought to be both. the irony is that the treatment that i've received from online dealers, like www.trinityguitars.com, seems more like what a local dealership is all about: great service, great service, great service. while jim holler has some of the best prices, he also has some of the best service. i bet that his local customers are very happy too.

I can agree with many points here, and I will admit that I more than likely WILL do business with the store who wouldn't haggle with me.  I'd like to build a good relationship with them as they are very friendly (as was the salesman I was working with until I tried to deal) and have services I'd like to take advantage of in the future.

As for online dealers, I can second Jim at Trinity for price and customer service - even though it's half a continent away from me.  I ordered a guitar from him that had a problem, and he handled it with the highest level of professionalism and concern for what I wanted to do.  As I said on another forum about it: good customer service is easy to provide when things go smoothly, but when issues arise is when you separate the wheat from the chaff.  Jim provided outstanding service under both conditions.  I feel certain he'll get my business again soon.

Ideally I'd like to buy locally than from a big box store, but usually when I walk into a guitar store I know more about the acoustics than they do. The only local store carries Gibson, last time I was in there I asked if they could order one in a long scale length, the reply I got was "whats a long scale?"  :rolleye:
I bought my Larrivees before Artisan guitars in Franklin TN started carrying them. When I was hunting for a OM/PW or OM-28V the only OM/PW I found was priced about $600 more than what I paid for mine! The next new guitar I buy will almost certainly be one that I walk out of the store with, though.

Great thread !!!!

Quote from: bleumax on April 06, 2007, 05:15:41 PM
at the end of the day, what prevents a mom and pop/local store from also being an online dealer? it seems that in this day and age, you ought to be both. the irony is that the treatment that I've received from online dealers, like www.trinityguitars.com, seems more like what a local dealership is all about: great service, great service, great service. while Jim holler has some of the best prices, he also has some of the best service. i bet that his local customers are very happy too.

:+1:

Although I did not end up buying from Jim at Trinity,  I know that his service, adjust setup and replace tusq to bone, would have been top notch!
I do have one of the Forums Set up by Jason at Notableguitars, (dont ya love that name) and his expert set up makes that guitar the best player  in the house.  When I bought my Seagull Artist Folk, using a BuyitNow from an online dealer in Wisconsin. I received a  perfectly set up guitar. Nut slot depth dead on, relief .008", saddle  action is .093" at fret 12.   

I have always been, and still am usually,  a support your neighbors business, kind of buyer. However, with no nearby Larrivee dealer and the enthusiasm and acclaim that this forum generates,  I had to have a Larrivee.  I  was all set to buy a L03 from Jim,  when waiting for a weekend to end and call him,  I posted a WTB a Blackwood.   Kdonavon responded (bless his heart) and I purchased  My L03 BW.  Later, I got GAS and purchased my OM3 BW from bluemax.  I also purchased and sold a Parlor on this forum.   And most recently got my OM03 MT 12 fret Forum from another forum member.  All wonderful, comfortable transactions.   Tks Kdonavan and bluemax  !!

I only wish I could find locally the kind of service and commitment to quality and satisfied customers,  that our favorite online dealers, repairmen and fellow forumites, give us everyday,  everytime.    I live in the Eugene, Oregon area,  second largest Oregon metropolitan area.  Only one local Mom and POP shop,  no Larry's and their resident luthier/repairman,  wont touch a guitar for a set up for less than $150.00.  no joke.  Only other music shop  GC, 'nuf said.

Climbing sheepishly off my soap box.......


ds

This is a great topic!
Just yesterday I went into a music store that used to sell Martin only to find about a dozen guitars I never heard of hanging on the wall.All cheap import stuff. When I asked the salesman what happened to the Martin's he said "we will not be stocking any high end guitars but we will still order them for you". When I asked why he said "we can't move them". Now, this is a store that has catered to the b-grass crowd for a long time and it's in a town that has a large b-grass following.
What he wasn't telling me though was that his pricing was way out of proportion to what buyers expected to pay. They would only discount a new Martin 10%,and even that took some haggling. Now, most musicians know you can get 40% off list for a new Martin or similar brand guitar so who wants to pay the premium pricing when there are other options?
Most of my higher end purchases have all been from the internet with the exceptions being my C-10 which I purchased at Wildwood Music in Ohio and a new Taylor 410-CE from Elderly(definitely not high end but that's another story). I have purchased a Martin HD-28 and a Taylor 614-CE from Buffalo Bros, a Martin 000C-RGTE AURA from Maury,a Larrivee OM-50 from Jason and I can't remember the rest.
The point is that every one of those online transactions were flawless. The only negative is of course I have to search hard to find a qualiifed tech to do any work I might need. But that's what I get for living out in the boonies so far from a larger city. I have to drive a minimum of 90 minutes to find one.
Trying to find a good used acoustic in my neck of the woods is darn near impossible so I almost always buy new at the lowest price I can find.
Just my 2 cents worth on a cold,snowy Saturday morning.
Ron

It seems most of us would prefer to buy locally and support our communities, but the conveniance and price difference make it difficult not to buy online. I would spend more on gas getting to stores and polluting the environment that way than having the fed ex people deliver it. Mail order has always been a great resource to North Americans and the Internet just takes it a whole step further. The economy as a whole must surely gain from being able to shop at home. Plus, when I order stuff, it's here before I would have had a chance to get to the stores anyway.

Can't put this genie back in the bottle unless by a miracle we were to see more guitar shops than car dealerships. There's just too little to choose from in any of the current stores I've visited.

Luckily I have a great local luthier who has repaired and modified a guitar for me in the past who works out of his home. I suspect we'll see more repair people of all kinds if prices on new items go up but we need China to unionize before that happens.

WOW this wild.I know a store that just became a Martin dealer.He has to 90K year wholesale to stay a Martin dealer.To make 9K seems like a waste of money.I'm glad I'm just a repairperson and not a dealer. :nanadance

I have "tried" to buy local at least 4 times and only once did I walk out with a guitar. I bout a Taylor about 3 years a go because it was on a good sale, but since then the prices have just been too much over what good reputable online dealers can offer. The Larrivee I bought would have been $300 more at this shop. That is enough savings to buy an Utrasound AG30, a new tuner and 7-8 sets of strings!  Yes I would like to patronize my local stores, but if I want to continue to buy American guitars, I have to shop for a bargain.

On the other topic, I believe it is only a matter of time before we really separate into the "Have and Have nots" and unless you are willing to shell out some serious money, you will be buying products made elsewhere. It's a shame, but fact.  I know many remember when stuff made in Japan was "junk", now it is high quality and priced to match. With their many years of recession and financial problems they now farm out so much. You would think Hitachi was Japanese, but only in name like many other products.  What I should do is buy a few wood sets and tools so later when I am retired and have some time I can make a few guitars!

QuoteReputation is more important then money.This includes selling them and fixing them.You've got to stand behind what you do.

And that is so very true.  Being a service provider of anything is also very unforgiving.  One screw-up and you lose a customer if you don't handle it right.

My 'former' luthier whom I'd known, trusted and supported for nearly 20 years screwed me recently.  We discussed at length the construction of a custom Telecaster from parts.  He knew I wanted to be frugal about this and he knew what I intended to spend.  I trusted his advice as I bought the components which included a $100 AllParts neck.  When I went to pick the guitar up his Dad and one of his buddies immediately started talking about how much work that neck needed and, "Oh, he sure put a lot of time into that neck."   Not a good sign even if they did consider me an idiot. . . .they knew I was not going to be pleased with the bill when I walked through the door.   'Turns out he spent $250 re-finishing the neck!  Now that's not a bad thing - he did a really good job with it - I even made the waterslide decals for him.  The problem was he (and everybody else) KNEW I would pay for it regardless of what he did.  Hell, I could've bought a new Warmoth neck (finished) for $375 and it would've been a better neck.

I no longer have a trusted luthier.  I paid him what he asked.   But he lost a $1500 per year customer.  Stupid.

QuoteI can't tell you how many horror stories I've been told about buying at one place or another or someone did a repair and now I need to get it repaired again because it was screwed up.

This seems to be a good luthier's perpetual lament.  I've heard it dozens of times.  The last time I heard it was from a luthier who had been criticized by another luthier for doing shoddy work!! 

QuoteWhat I should do is buy a few wood sets and tools so later when I am retired and have some time I can make a few guitars!

After several expensive disappointments chasing my 'dream' guitar, this is exactly what I've recently decided to do.  I recently bought an inexpensive kit and an OM form.   I've bought Kinkead's book on how to build an acoustic guitar.  I'm in the process of creating a modest shop to pursue the custom guitar of my dreams.  Screw Martin's custom shop and their quality control issues.

QuoteNew Prices Versus Used Prices

I don't buy new guitars anymore unless there's something extremely special about the instrument.  But I don't generally have to worry.  The last guitar I REALLY wanted to buy was created by Tony Vines and it was up around $8000.  We give advice to those shopping for guitars.  We say, "buy the one that speaks to you".  Well, this one DEFINITELY spoke to me!  :drool:    And then I had a talk with me too.   :arrow   And we all came to a consensus that buying this guitar would be financial suicide.   :crying:  But geeeze, what a guitar!!!

But really, you'd think that guitar prices would be like housing?  At some point in a given local community house prices will plateau and won't move because of people not having enough money to afford them.  Housing costs are, more or a little less, self-regulating.  So, I can't help but wonder if guitars will reach a plateau where new guitars over say, $2000 will become the ceiling for most buyers and the used market will become the floor.   I dunno' how to think about it but it would seem that, at some point, the market would be so glutted with guitars there would be little point in maintaining high prices for instruments that few people would buy>?

Oh, never mind. 

Quote from: whiskeyjack on April 08, 2007, 03:09:51 AM
So, I can't help but wonder if guitars will reach a plateau where new guitars over say, $2000 will become the ceiling for most buyers and the used market will become the floor.   

I'm already there.  In fact, $2000 is a skitch above my ceiling. 

whiskeyjack well said.I try not to bad mouth others,though it may come across that way ie:I wonder why he did it that way{one of my favorite sayings}.Price wise I ry to give a cieling and a bottom,then no matter how well I know the person or don't know them I will talk to them.I don't do any building but I do do some assembly work now and then and I have set prices.If I mess up the $ on me.

QuoteIf I mess up the $ on me

And that's the ethical thing to do.  The customer should be informed of what to expect and the service provider should have the integrity to follow through.

My former luthier was always reluctant to provide an upfront verbal estimate. . . .and I was always adamant about getting one.  I'm sure it bugged him.  And I was not as persnickity as some of his customers were to deal with.  He did great setups!   But for this custom guitar, he exceeded the verbal handshake by about 200 bucks (beyond my threshold for forgiveness). 

It takes me a little while to catch on sometimes but he eventually showed his true colours.  I wasn't sharp enough, or maybe just felt obligated to support a struggling sole proprietorship.  Anyway, he screwed up for the last time with me.  It comes down to credibility and integrity: lose one or the other and you've lost me as a customer.  And I think we're all that way to some degree.   This thread is a chronicle to some of the things that shape a buyers' loyalty (or not).

QuoteI try not to bad mouth others,though it may come across that way . . .

Nah.  You just tell it like it is.  That's why folks in these parts respect your credibility.  You are a credit to this forum and I've seen you back step a few times when you were misunderstood to get things straightened out.

QuoteI'm already there.  In fact, $2000 is a skitch above my ceiling.

.. .as it is above mine as well. . .   That said, I'll have a bit more than $2000 into the first guitar I build if my time is worth anything.  After the first one, I'll hopefully have a better idea of my costs.  In any event, I think learning to build, learning to set up, learning to re-fret, dress frets, etc. is within the realm of possibility for any of us who have a passion for guitars.  I was just too lazy for too many years and had more money than brains or ambition. . .   It took about $4000 dollars of disappointment to kick me in the butt and make me assess how badly I wanted to pursue and maintain this guitar habit, and to figure out what I might be willing to do to make it more fulfilling and cheaper at the same time.

The used vs new issue had a lot to do with my change in buying habits.  'Don't know if anyone else can relate to this but. . .  I was in a place where I had enough money to 'collect' nice guitars in the 2000-dollar range.  (The Arlo Guthrie 0000-AG Signature twelve string was one of two exceptions at $3500 and my bastardized J16C-RGTE custom twelve string was the other at about $2700)...   

So I bought used and new Martins and Taylors at the same time.  The new ones were purchased from dealers

Initially, it was Bob Taylors' attitude toward the folks at the old Taylor Guitar Forum that got me to thinking seriously about how much money I was spending on new guitars.  Then it was a seriously disappointing experience with a new custom guitar from Martin that REALLY hacked me off.  So, from my perspective it goes back to the integrity thing. . .   My much-belabored point here is that at least some customers can be discouraged from buying new guitars, (or new anything), by manufacturers who are insensitive to the customer. . . .or even insensitive to my favourite dealers, online or not!   That's just one more thing driving more of us to buy used guitars rather than new. 

Jean Larrivee's guitar company has not been insensitive to the customer.  To the contrary for sure!!!   But my experiences with Taylor and Martin management leave a lot to be desired.  One bad $2000 experience will NOT encourage me to spend that kind of money again on anything NEW in the entire name brand line.
_____________________________________+

I don't sell on ebay hardly at all..   But there were no buyers for this guitar on the forum, so I decided to try auctioning it.  So as an exercise in what a used guitar can bring, let's use my auction as an example of what happens when bidders have access to a virtually new guitar being sold as used by a second owner.   I'm told that this guitar sells new for just under a thousand dollars at a very reputable online dealer most of us are familiar with - I didn't verify it.  The buy-it-now price is $975 which is what I think the guitar is worth - but don't expect to get.   The reserve price is reasonable.  The auction ends tomorrow morning.  If the reserve price is met, somebody will get a really nice guitar.  But right now, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the reserve will not be met on this instrument! 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180103775396&rd=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180103775396&rd=1&rd=1)

 

Quote from: whiskeyjack on April 08, 2007, 03:13:47 PM
Initially, it was Bob Taylors' attitude toward the folks at the old Taylor Guitar Forum that got me to thinking seriously about how much money I was spending on new guitars.  Then it was a seriously disappointing experience with a new custom guitar from Martin that REALLY hacked me off.  So, from my perspective it goes back to the integrity thing. . .   My much-belabored point here is that at least some customers can be discouraged from buying new guitars, (or new anything), by manufacturers who are insensitive to the customer. . . .or even insensitive to my favourite dealers, online or not!   That's just one more thing driving more of us to buy used guitars rather than new. 

Jean Larrivee's guitar company has not been insensitive to the customer.  To the contrary for sure!!!   But my experiences with Taylor and Martin management leave a lot to be desired.  One bad $2000 experience will NOT encourage me to spend that kind of money again on anything NEW in the entire name brand line.
 

I've only had one customer service experience with Taylor, and it was just a phone call asking for specifics.  They were very friendly and professional, so I have no beef there.  I'm not too familiar with what may have happened on the forum deal.  It's my understanding that Larrivee offers very good customer service as well.

Having said all that, I'd like to look into maybe a Morgan or something a little different, yet very high in quality for a companion guitar to my Taylor - unless that "companion" outplays it, and then it may be replaced.  I'm really liking it so far though, so I hope to keep it a while.

Whiskey you hit the nail on the head.Integrity,honor and trust are everything.I trully wish more people had it.As much as I could use more money its just not worth the lose of  Integrity,honor and trust.So we get by.I do have a ? did your luthier make the neck?Did he say why he had to refinish it? $200 is cheap to do an assembly of parts.

UncleRob:  You've got an email.

'Probly best to let this thread get back on track.  My apologies to ya Brimc76.  I got a little carried away. :blush:

Quote from: whiskeyjack on April 09, 2007, 02:15:53 AM
UncleRob:  You've got an email.

'Probly best to let this thread get back on track.  My apologies to ya Brimc76.  I got a little carried away. :blush:

I agree with what has been said whiskeyjack, but I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me. I'm grateful that this discussion has been allowed to happen. I have nothing against buying anything online - if I can't find what I'm looking for locally. I'd be grateful for more information on that book of Kinkead's you mentioned if you would pm me the details. Thanks.

Brian

While I do buy strings and sundries locally, and did buy my Parlor locally, I just wish there was a store in the area that I really wanted to support. I've been in such places at the other end of a plane ride.

I've been patronizing one of the local stores for around a quarter century. Others have commented on the same vibe I get, that they (the owner in particular) look down on anyone who isn't a working pro. I've spent a lot of money there over the years. One particular trade is still etched in my mind - a snow job about an amp being only worth X used, so it was only worth X/2 in trade. Well, they have to make a profit, I understand that. Imagine my surprise the next day when I saw it priced at over triple what I had been told (over 6X the trade in). Well, shame on me for being a sucker, but there was no Ebay to gauge prices by in those days, especially for something (ahem) rare.

I do still support them from time to time (that's where I bought the Parlor), because like it or not, they are still the best shop in town. I sure learned not to trust the owner, though. By the way, he's the best (only) tech in town, since a luthier friend died last year.

There's a newer shop that I like better, but they have nothing I want. They're just down the road from the other shop though, so I can't even (in good conscience) suggest they pick up new lines that they'll lose money on.

Ebay may not be doing great things for the new/retail market, but I've often seen things go above retail (including Larrivees). I do think it's good that there is a public gauge of the used market price, but maybe my perspective is skewed. One thing about it, without the narrow spread enabled by Ebay and online classifieds, GAS would be a lot more painful and I suspect that fewer new Larrivees (etc) would be sold. The option of buying new to try, with the expectation of getting most of your money back, simply didn't exist before.

I do think there is entirely too much new stuff being retailed on Ebay by "dealers".

Quote. . .I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me.

Yes, I did.   Thank ya. :smile:    *My apologies to ya, Fredmondo!*
_____________________________

Brimc76:  You've got an email regarding the Kinkead book.
_____________________________

sgarnett:

  'Pretty dis-heartening thing to get screwed by someone you've supported for years. 

QuoteEbay may not be doing great things for the new/retail market,. . . .    One thing about it, without the narrow spread enabled by Ebay and online classifieds, GAS would be a lot more painful and I suspect that fewer new Larrivees (etc) would be sold.

I think that's right.  Ebay has influenced people who would normally have purchased new items just by virtue of its field of sellers and the alternatives they provide.  It'd be interesting to see graphs of sales trends over the last ten or so years from Larrivee, Martin and Taylor.  Can't help but think they've tanked.

QuoteThe option of buying new to try, with the expectation of getting most of your money back, simply didn't exist before.

That IS quite a benefit for us.  And I think it came largely because of the competition created by ebay and the internet.   It's not universal by any means but, as you say, the option didn't exist (anywhere) before.  Places like Elderly, who offer a 48 hour trial period ARE a real incentive to buy new stuff.  I had a rule when I was out of control :laughin:: if the price difference between new and used guitar was $150 or less, I'd buy it new from someone who offered a grace period.

The problem with ebay and the competition thing is that virtually all used items have lost value (the exceptions are truly vintage guitars or celebrity-owned instruments - Elton John's piano, for example).  The old farm auctions of yore were a good place to buy usable equipment cheap - and as you suggest, sometimes the price of things went way beyond what it sold for new.   So regardless of the "value" of the guitar (materials, features, build, etc), it will ultimately sell for less than its intrinsic monetary value.

QuoteI don't sell on ebay hardly at all..   But there were no buyers for this guitar on the forum, so I decided to try auctioning it.  So as an exercise in what a used guitar can bring, let's use my auction as an example of what happens when bidders have access to a virtually new guitar being sold as used by a second owner.   I'm told that this guitar sells new for just under a thousand dollars at a very reputable online dealer most of us are familiar with - I didn't verify it.  The buy-it-now price is $975 which is what I think the guitar is worth - but don't expect to get.   The reserve price is reasonable.  The auction ends tomorrow morning.  If the reserve price is met, somebody will get a really nice guitar.  But right now, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the reserve will not be met on this instrument!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180103775396&rd=1&rd=1

The auction ended.  Maximum bid: $750 for my Larrivee OMV-03.  Not even close to the reserve.  In the old days, (if this model had been available), before the internet, this guitar would have been more valuable.  I'd be a bit frustrated if I were an older guitar dealer with memories of life before ebay.

And then there are annual fluctuations in sales of everything.   This guitar might sell for more money in February 2008 just after folks start getting their income tax returns.

Quote from: whiskeyjack on April 09, 2007, 11:08:27 AM
sgarnett:

  'Pretty dis-heartening thing to get screwed by someone you've supported for years.

Actually, it's the other way around. I've continued to warily support them for years after being screwed. A local shop I don't trust is still marginally better than none at all.  Nevertheless, they have lost far more business from me in the long run than they gained from one swindle, and as I said I still get the vibe that I don't belong there, as do others.

So, I will often pay more to support someone I trust, or someone that helps me above and beyond, regardless of where they are.

Quote from: whiskeyjack on April 09, 2007, 11:08:27 AM
Yes, I did.   Thank ya. :smile:    *My apologies to ya, Fredmondo!*
_____________________________

Brimc76:  You've got an email regarding the Kinkead book.
_____________________________

Thanks.

Quote from: brimc76 on April 09, 2007, 08:47:39 AM
I agree with what has been said whiskeyjack, but I think you meant the apologies to Fredmondo who started this thread, instead of me. I'm grateful that this discussion has been allowed to happen. I have nothing against buying anything online - if I can't find what I'm looking for locally. I'd be grateful for more information on that book of Kinkead's you mentioned if you would pm me the details. Thanks.

Brian

Brian, now don't start being nice to me. I won't know how to act at home. Abuse keeps me honest! :roll
This is all very interesting...on thread...thread! It's all cool! :nana_guitar

QuoteAbuse keeps me honest!

:laughin: :roll :roll :arrow  Glutton for punishment!!

For those of you who have sold used guitars to fund new GAS adventures, do you think it comes to a point where you will take a low-ball price?
Or, do you just put the guitar back in the collection and wait it out?
Again, I think e-Bay is great for some things. But, the majority of the buyers are looking for a real deal.
Heck, you see that on forum classifieds all the time.

I'm not sure if we're complaining or celebrating ebay. Regardless of the final price, stuff is moving around more quickly. There is more choice and a wider access to potential buyers. The pull between buyers and sellers will always be in opposite directions, always has been. And both parties it seems to me are rarely satisfied.

All around good stuff though. I don't think I'll ever miss the good old days.

Most reminiscing about the old days involves girls more than guitars  :smile:

Or maybe I should say, it involves more girls than guitars instead of the other way around ....

Quote from: Fredmando on April 09, 2007, 01:50:48 PM
Brian, now don't start being nice to me. I won't know how to act at home. Abuse keeps me honest! :roll
This is all very interesting...on thread...thread! It's all cool! :nana_guitar

:thumbsup :roll  :bgrin:

Quote from: Fredmando on April 10, 2007, 06:09:42 AM
For those of you who have sold used guitars to fund new GAS adventures, do you think it comes to a point where you will take a low-ball price?
Or, do you just put the guitar back in the collection and wait it out?
Again, I think e-Bay is great for some things. But, the majority of the buyers are looking for a real deal.
Heck, you see that on forum classifieds all the time.

A major decrease in Gas adventures will continue to be the trend for me.  And I think most of us have willingly taken a hit in selling an instrument to satisfy the urge for buying something else that looked and sounded better.    Riight now, I've chosen to wait out the soft market on used guitars rather than lose $150-200 on a guitar used guitar I bought in January.  I don't believe I paid too much for it then.  So methinks it's a little rediculous that a $950 used guitar would sell for only $750 in three months. . .and there's not a scratch on it.    :crying:  Cutaways are supposed to be more valuable!~!  :arrow :roll

Quote from: bearsville0 on April 10, 2007, 07:18:39 AM
I'm not sure if we're complaining or celebrating ebay. . . . There is more choice and a wider access to potential buyers. And both (buyers and sellers) parties it seems to me are rarely satisfied. . . .
I don't think I'll ever miss the good old days.

I use ebay frequently so I must like it more than not.  It's benefits for the individual buyer outshine it's warts for the sometime-seller though - it's expensive to sell on ebay.  It'll cost about $55 for a modest reserve auction on a 1000-dollar-guitar and more if you conduct the transaction through a Premier PayPal account using a credit card.  SO that's roughly 5.5% from ebay PLUS approximately 3.3% from PayPal.  'Around $88 bucks on a $1000 sale? 

Ebay is a buyer's market.   Ya, there's more choice but "somebody" is footin' the bill for that convenience.   The profit margin for these huge ebay sellers can't be that great or there'd be more of them and it'd be interesting to see a graphic profile of sellers with fluctuations in their annual income from ebay sales.

And you're right, the good old days weren't always that great.  But I do miss the simplicity of a slower pace, fewer choices, lower blood pressure and seemingly higher ethical business standards.  There's always trade-offs that we're apparently happy to pay for though.

Good thread!@

Great Thread, everyone! :donut :donut2
Yeah, the e-Bay listing fee is kind of high once you load up on the bells and whistles. Once you load in the Pay Pal percentage, anyting under $500 is an expensive sell--right?
The best e-Bay story I have is when I was selling a Taylor and some guy wrote me a message "you'll never get $XXXX for that Taylor, Hick!" I was rolling on the floor. A "hick" is a great screen name!! Why didn't I think of that earlier. I sold it to a great guy in Utah and we e-mailed for a while after the sale. Man, that was so wacky, but funny in a twisted way!
This dude made one more mistake, so I had to send him to e-Bay's FBI.