Looking for opinions.
I've always wanted to own a Gibson J45. I currently own a D-03 which I'm very happy with, but the J45 lust won't go away. I've played them in stores a couple of times and I've played a friend's '63 J45, but I've never had a chance to compare them to my D-03. I was wondering if anyone in the forum has had any experience with these two guitars? I know this is all very subjective, but it would be nice to hear some informed opinions about each guitar's strengths and weaknesses. There are some basic structural differences. The Gibson has sloped shoulders and a shorter scale neck. The D-03 has an ebony fretboard.
Any thoughts?

J45 have that Gibson chug sound,Its not a bad thing and aI've always enjoyed it.The D03 is warmer and to my ears more versatile.Hope this helps.

I think Dreads are great all around guitars that sound good doing anything. Larrivee L's used to be my fav, but D's really do it for me... jmho;-)

Jumbo's usually have a tad more bass but D's have plenty for my ears!

Hi Phil,

Holy cow where do I begin. I've owned and played no less than 100+ J-45s from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 90s, and new. I've even played all the 1930s models that predated the J-45. This is such a completely different beast than a D-03 it's not even a close comparison. The D-03r is a longer scale rosewood guitar with a big box sound with boomy bass and a huge cabinet like sound. The upper square shoulders, big body and depth all contribute to a sound similar to a Martin classic Dread but a little more of a Larrivee sound, balanced and perhaps not as light a build as the vintage martins. Larrivee's bracing is all their own and nothing like a Martin except in very general sense. It's a bluegrass machine with a hint of modern influences and Larrivee flavoring. Some of them I've played are fantastic and all of them are good. The midrange can get a little lost and the bass can overpower you if not careful. They make better strummers by a long shot than fingerpickers. The bass and the whole sound is refined and polished and the responsiveness of a D-03 in general is not as light to the touch and sensitive as the true Martin Vintage build it's shape pays tribute to. Never the less the D-03 is probably the best guitar for the money in the industry and can serve a teenager as well as a seasoned pro. And YES contrary to what anyone thinks the satin models are louder and more open sounding. Now let's talk about a J-45

The classic J-45 went through many changes and although they were all light, airy, woody in the late 1930s, 40s and 50s the bracing, liner, trim and other things changed for the worse as every decade went by until the late 50s saw the last of the J-45s worth owning and they even had chopped sqaured off bracing and other issues that defy logic. Then in the 1960/70s Gibson just proceeded in ruining the model with screw adjustable saddles, banjo necks and just plain old crappy guitars. In the early 90s Henry had bought Gibson and got the acoustic division going in Montana with people like luthier Ren Ferguson and others at the wheel. They produced some of the best J-45s in decades and almost duplicated the old 40s models to the T. In fact they kinda reminded me of the old 1930s J-35 and "Jumbo" which were the first ones. They had finish issues sometimes but still great players with beefy necks and good specs. Then they've just been sketchy and up and down with quality since then. Out of maybe 20 J-45s I see in stores 5 might be impressive. Now granted I have heard the best kinds of J-45s which all sound a little different but have that common Gibson sound. The original Kalamazoo sound is what you WANT.

The J-45 unlike the Gibson AJ and unlike the Larrivee D-03 is a SHORTER scale fretboard at about 24.9" instead of the longer 25.5" scale. This means less tension, a different bridge position and a sweeter warmer tone, more overtones but less power. Then the Gibson bracing and build produces an almost dull thumpy, thunky, ker-thunky bass and trebles that dont sustain forever and notes that are pretty fundamental based on the bracing, spruce top and mahogany back. The slope shoulders give the sound more focus and the midranges and middle of chords and some notes dont get lost as much and the body doesn't have as much deep cabinety bass as a D-03 and much more of a cheesy sound. Not refined and magestic like an ancient waterfall in an enchanted forest. More like Lightnin Hopkins playing country blues. All J-45s look cool and if you stare at them in the store you might convince yourself an average one sounds fantastic. Trust me the great ones are still very loud and responsive to the touch. The Gibson sound isn't pretty and it isn't refined even to the vintage Martin X brace standard. And it dang sure aint refined like a Larrivee. It has a little bit of a cheesy sound.

A CLASSIC feature of a sort half way good J-45 is they only sound good with brand new strings and sound dead after 3-4 days and need a new set. That more what you get new these days. Of course they now have a rosewood version and most of them are sloppy and half azzed made. I did find one rosewood J-45 last year in a GC that was fantastic and an idiot customer was refusing to buy it for 1795.00 because it had a 1mm flaw in the finish. I can live with tiny flaws. I just dont like the pitiful neck angles and very shoddy workmanship you see. At this time I literally refuse to support Gibsons disfunctional and downright wierd company, policies. The closest thing to a Gibson Larrivee sells is the slope dreads but in reality they are copies of Martin designs after the 1930s Ditson 12 fret dreads and NOT Gibsons.

The ONLY luthier on the planet right now even coming reasonably close to cloning the true Gibson Kalamazoo magic is John Greven but they'' cost you another grand. Good luck. You have to understand the Gibson tone to build it. That includes the little saw marks on the bracing. Braces that dont go into the liner and special wood choices. I'm getting two Greven 1930s replica L-00s in a week or so for some testing while they are on a road trip around the country. Should be interesting. I wish I could share more but the Gibson J-45 thing is so wildly different from a D-03 I wanted to give you some of my personal experiences. I think the L-05 mahogany in a shorter scale would actually be the closest thing Larrivee has to a Gibson but again the sound is more refined and has ZERO percent of the Gibson thunk and cheese. It's way more perfect sounding and lush with bright trebles and takes more effort to make volume. The L is my favorite Larrivee none the less.

Good luck,
LB

Quote from: unclrob on July 01, 2006, 10:05:14 PM
J45 have that Gibson chug sound,Its not a bad thing and aI've always enjoyed it.The D03 is warmer and to my ears more versatile.Hope this helps.

ditto!

Thanks all. Some very good points.

LittleBrother - I hadn't realized that the Larrivee L body is so similar to the J45. It's actually a little deeper. I'll have to start seriously looking at them.

Now if I could only find a mahogany L with a sunburst top.....

(http://pic7.picturetrail.com/VOL208/996154/4201316/145455550.jpg)
Heres the '59 J-45 I had a while back, it had a big woody tone, killer bass, really great.   Sold it in '99 when I found my Larrivee OM-03W, which sounded slightly better, and was as loud, if not louder.  Still miss it sometimes though, and the '26 Gibson Ajr mando too. 

 :ph34r:

Elderly has a really great Collings CJ.  This is a great j-45 clone(probably better than any gibson j-45)  but it does have a natural top although they do make sunburst topped ones.  You could save some money on this baby though(I was very tempted by this myself until I got my larrivee)

http://elderly.com/vintage/names/collings-cj-%282001%29--20U-10405.htm

Quote from: LittleBrother on July 02, 2006, 12:41:43 AM
Hi Phil,

Holy cow where do I begin. I've owned and played no less than 100+ J-45s from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 90s, and new. I've even played all the 1930s models that predated the J-45. This is such a completely different beast than a D-03 it's not even a close comparison. The D-03r is a longer scale rosewood guitar with a big box sound with boomy bass and a huge cabinet like sound. The upper square shoulders, big body and depth all contribute to a sound similar to a Martin classic Dread but a little more of a Larrivee sound, balanced and perhaps not as light a build as the vintage martins.

I think the L-05 mahogany in a shorter scale would actually be the closest thing Larrivee has to a Gibson but again the sound is more refined and has ZERO percent of the Gibson thunk and cheese. It's way more perfect sounding and lush with bright trebles and takes more effort to make volume. The L is my favorite Larrivee none the less.

Good luck,
LB

Absolutely - what he said...I think that the Larrivee D's are more in the tradition of the Martin D-28's. The L body seems to be Larrivee's closest model to a slope shouldered Gibson, but it's got sustain where the Gibson doesn't and seems to have less of a mid-rangy sound. If you're wanting that Gibson sound, I would consider the Gibson Advanced Jumbo before the J-45. I own an AJ and have really liked it - although I don't think it competes with the sound of my Santa Cruz Tony Rice or the L-03R...but it DOES have that Gibson sound...that mute-y no sustain chunk chunk. The advanced jumbo was by far better sounding than the J-45...

If you are considering a J-45 also look at Gibson Southern Jumbos which are the former with more trim.

E. Shoaf

Little Brother, thanks for one of the best posts I've ever seen on any guitar forum.

My girlfriend has a mid-60s J-50 that I actually like quite a bit, despite LB's disdain for the instruments from that decade.  But as LB says, it sounds and feels as different from my D-03R as a Les Paul does from a Strat.

Isn't one of the new Santa Cruzes intended to be a replica of one of the old Gibson slope dreads?

This thread has been very informative.

I knew that a shorter scale neck was easier to play but I never considered that you sacrifice volume with it. It makes sense. I think my notions about J-45s has more to do with their looks.

I already have a mahogany OM that I love and would never part with. I'd really like to find something that's equally comfortable to play but has a little more projection and bottom for playing with other people or accompanying vocals. I'm definitely going to take a serious look at the Larrivee L-body models. Maybe an L-03 with a mahogany top. That should have a real woody, bluesy, sound but still have plenty of volume.

Quote from: Tycho on July 06, 2006, 11:55:23 AM

Isn't one of the new Santa Cruzes intended to be a replica of one of the old Gibson slope dreads?

The Santa Cruz Vintage Jumbo...pretty awesome. I'd rather have that than the Gibson.

Matt Gage builds a guitar that reminds me of the Gibson Jumbos, but the body is longer.
Nice guitars though.
--Fred

Check out the quotes from John Greven in the article on building vintage-style guitars in the current Acoustic Guitar.  I liked his reference to how he's trying to obtain the "dry, crackly" sound of old Gibsons.

Answering a few questions and thanks for being receptive to my opinions and personal experiences.

Tycho,

John Greven is the master of tone for USA vintage sounds. In fact many people in the guitar world after 40 years are beginning to realize it. He's not a factory CNC perfect guitar of course but they are tonal masterpieces for real world players. The ultimate gig guitar. A whole different animal from a highly polished and refined CNC and precision jigged SCGC. In fact the SCGC Gibson clone models are actually more of a modern X braced Martin sound with a radiused top and more contemporary lush perfection and "improved" tone and fantastic guitars but the Gibsons in contrast sound raspy, thoaty and sometimes boxy. It makes my knees weak and nothing sounds better to my ear than country blues on my 1930s ladder braced Kalamazoo but many luthiers would get sick at their stomach hearing it. Honestly though luthiers say they voice guitars for the customer but they only bend over half way and lean your way. Most of them, like Larrrivee, build the sounds Jean likes and the designs he wants. They will always have a contemporary feel, look and sound. He has however blown my mind how far he is catering to the vintage eye and market. Make no mistake they are all Larrivee underneath the burst. And that's a good thing.

I'll be testing and recording all of those new Greven designs for him. I'm usually on the testing list for his new models.

Oh yeah short scale drops volume in some cases because it has less tension but you also gain more overtones. Just dont judge a guitar until you hear it. Rules are made to be broken in some cases. I own tiny short scale guitars that have huge bass and loud volume. You just cant ever tell. But the physics are interesting and do work into the whole equation.


:) :)

QuoteJust dont judge a guitar until you hear it. Rules are made to be broken in some cases.

That statement pretty much sums it all up! I've been fooled more than once and have had to change my expectations after playing some guitars that sounded differently than what I was expecting them to.

Jeff

Don't you know it Jeff! Never know... sorry to bogart this thread but just adding this mp3 by request. I can't remember which one of these D03 threads needed it but here's an amatuer recording of a friend with a D-03 doing what I think this guitar is the ultimate for. Hope this sample is helpful to some players MP3 Recording (http://www.acousticplayermagazine.com/LittleBrotherFilesMisc/Larrivee-D03-Sample.mp3)

Quote from: LittleBrother on July 09, 2006, 10:17:24 PM
... sorry to bogart this thread

No problem...I started this thread and I've found your comments to be very helpful.

I was knocked out by your something that you wrote in another thread about D-03s. I had no idea that a Larrivee L series and a Gibson Advanced Jumbo are so similar that they actually fit in each other's cases. I've always loved AJs. I know that there are some serious differences between the two as far as bracing is concerned, but this does help to steer me in the right direction in regards to shopping for the kind of fingerstyle blues machine I'm looking for.

Speaking of AJs....If you're a Jorma Kaukonen fan, which I am, I've noticed that he recently started playing a brand new natural top AJ. There's a small picture of him playing it here:
http://www.hottuna.com
I recently downloaded a Hot Tuna concert recording. The AJ really sings.

I might take a little trip to the guitar shop today to start checking out an L-03R.

Phil

Phil,

  I don't know where you are, but Hot Tuna is on the road doing small bar concerts. At least that is what they did last night. I was lucky enough to catch them at a club (The Culture Room) here in Ft. Lauderdale. It was a stand where you can, open floor setup, reminded me a lot of the old Keystone in Berkeley.
  They did an acoustic set followed by an electric set. Jorma did use the AJ a lot during the acoustic set. He and Jack were also using their Epiphone signature models. Barry Mitterhoff in particular was on fire last night, on a wild assortment of acoustic and electric mandolins a couple of mystery instruments, I had not seen before.
  If they come anywhere near your area,  do what it takes to be there. I am an old Hot Tuna fan, from the SF area originally. I  have not heard them play with this much fire in many years. Now is the time.

I saw Jorma solo in Toronto about five years ago.  He was truly great.  However, I hadn't become obsessed with acoustic gear yet, so I can't remember what he was playing.

One of the best things about that night was that most of the crowd was under 35.  I think he developed quite a big following among the jam-band crowd.

Thanks Phil. Yeah I love Jorma. He does his own thing and he rocks bigtime! Especially Hot Tuna. Last I saw him he was also playing a burst new AJ but you can bet he owns an arsenal. On his gig in Austin last year I seem to recall he was playing on older Gibson model. Maybe an old archtop with a ragtimey sound.

Actually, if you want a good "fingerstyle blues machine," you might consider a fairly cheap, all laminate wood guitar. I recently picked up a Fender DG-10L (lefty) for around $100 plus change, and it has that kind of woody, throaty, midrangey, dry sound like a J-45.  This cheapy Fender makes my Ovation sound airy, sophisticated, alive and open!

And if you're going to play the blues, what's more authentic than a cheap, laminated guitar, that you wouldn't be afraid to bang over someone's head in a brawl?

Just one man's humble opinion, but the more I play this cheap Fender, the more it reminds me of "that tone."  (It would work well for slide, too, cuz I can't get the action as low as I can on my Larrivees.)