000-60 back from Oxnard for repairs.

[Walkerman]

"....... My question for the forum: When have any of you heard of shaving a bridge on a brand new guitar without neck angle issues to address playability? The great Larrivee customer service failed on this one and I'll pay for the neck reset myself and buy a different brand the next time I wish to plunk down a couple of grand!......"

The problem as I see it is that you had ALREADY made up your mind that a neck reset was needed, regardless of what the folks at Larrivee said.  MOF, as I recall, you earlier posted "I have sent my beloved Frankie to Oxnard FOR A NECK RESET...." Not for Larrivee to assess and address the playability issues, but for a neck reset.  Hence, nothing other than a neck reset was going to assuage you.  Now if, in Larrivee's opinion, the neck angle was correct, what would be the purpose of a neck reset.  I think you should take the guitar back to the dealer, return it, sell it back or trade it in.  But I think that your carping on Larrivee is counter productive.  Moreover, your related experience with Larrivee customer service is so counter to what the vast majority of us have experienced that it is somewhat unbelievable.

[PortHueneme]

"....... My question for the forum: When have any of you heard of shaving a bridge on a brand new guitar without neck angle issues to address playability? The great Larrivee customer service failed on this one and I'll pay for the neck reset myself and buy a different brand the next time I wish to plunk down a couple of grand!......"

The problem as I see it is that you had ALREADY made up your mind that a neck reset was needed, regardless of what the folks at Larrivee said.  MOF, as I recall, you earlier posted "I have sent my beloved Frankie to Oxnard FOR A NECK RESET...." Not for Larrivee to assess and address the playability issues, but for a neck reset.  Hence, nothing other than a neck reset was going to assuage you.  Now if, in Larrivee's opinion, the neck angle was correct, what would be the purpose of a neck reset.  I think you should take the guitar back to the dealer, return it, sell it back or trade it in.  But I think that your carping on Larrivee is counter productive.  Moreover, your related experience with Larrivee customer service is so counter to what the vast majority of us have experienced that it is somewhat unbelievable.

of couse us Ventura County locals stick up for each other.
I too believe there is an equitable and fair solution to the problem.
I don't believe Matthew and Jean would let a problem guitar not get fixed, especially a high end OOO.

[gtrplayer]

Hey GAME,

 FWIW...My two-year old 000-50 Larrivee had a similar problem.  The action was too high and I had the "body-fingerboard union hump" which prohibited any type of adjustment for proper set-up though it was playable with buzzing at the 12th fret. My Martin certified technician said it would need a reset in less than five years.  I sent it back to Larrivee with the expectation of them performing a neck reset.  With no further communication three weeks later it came back.  The fix being "re-railing" and refret and according to Luke, "he may have possibly shaved the bridge".  Fortunately for me the guitar came back in good condition.  I measured string height at bridge and it almost meets Frank Ford's "FRET.com" standards.  Action and playability are excellent and I suspect the "re-railing" which might be fretboard planing allowed for it.
 As I've said prior I believe the Larrivee factory has a predisposition to "fix" problems in the manufacturing context.  Meaning that machinery setup and worker skills are much more conducive to address issues as a manufacturing problem/process.  Neck resets require a different set of skills, different setups and require longer repair times.  So it would be quite advantageous, economicaly speaking, for Larrivee to handle issues this way.
 Sorry to hear about your results.  If, as you say, your action/playability is still a problem continue to voice your displeasure.   The Larrivees, I believe, will eventually respond.

gtrplayer  

[KenS]

Gtrplayer:

I'm curious - when you said that your guitar "almost meets" Frank Ford's recommendations, I assume that you mean that the height is closer to 1/2" than it is to 3/8".  Am I correct in that assumption?

I don't really see economics as a defense: there are plenty of economical solutions which fall short.  For example, to raise a guitar's action one can shim a saddle rather make a new one.  This certainly works (in that it raises the action), but it is not a proper fix.  The same with bridge shaving - it is not a proper fix.  It is an "effort to forestall neck angle work" (quoting Frank Ford), and, in effect, an admission that the neck angle is NOT what it should be.  Shaving the bridge can even compromise the structural integrity of the guitar - unless the bridge has been overbuilt to begin with.

There is no question that a reset is labor intensive - but that's why we buy new guitars with warranties.   I have to say that I am a bit taken aback that Larrivee is cutting corners like this.  Either the neck angle is correct or it isn't.  If it isn't, then they should fix it - not employ a garage luthier's workaround.

Disturbing to say the least.

Ken

[gtrplayer]

Ken,

  You are correct in your assumption with regards to string height at the bridge.  As I stated in my post, I was hoping for a neck reset but I got what I got.  All communications from Larrivee stopped once an authorization number was given.  And as you know, the factory makes the assessment which doesn't leave you much leverage on a two-year old guitar purchased online.  I certainly will consider this in future purchases.  I just had my 27 year-old warranteed Martin dread's neck reset by an authorized Martin guitar tech.  There was no cost for this service.  Then again, have you seen the Martin pricelist?
   I informed the Martin tech of the Larrivee solution to my problem.  He thought a neck reset was the answer. As a consolation he also went on to say that wood has a tendency to move early in it's construction and then stabilize for the long haul.  Hopefully the Larrivee "fix", in my case, will last.  It plays and sounds good and if I saw it at some shop it would be easy to purchase it again.
  Is it the right thing to do?  I think not.  I still say it's an economic workaround which leaves a bad taste in your mouth.  It's unfortunate Larrivee has chosen this path but they're in business and I'm sure they have weighed the risks.

gtrplayer

[KenS]

Gtrplayer,

You are correct - there's little you can do without a local dealer to fall back on.   I do believe that if you get a good neck angle to begin with, you are probably fairly safe with Larrivee.   I buy used more often than new - so I'm accustomed to having to deal with the repairs on my own.  But you have to wonder - this kind of discussion on what is an unabashedly pro-Larrivee site (and I am unabashedly pro-Larrivee myself) should at least get their attention.  There are a scattering of these complaints online - not many, but a few.  Not enough to change my opinion about the company, however.

Ken

[PortHueneme]

I am still struggling with this.
As one who as been to the factory and met Matthew it is just hard for me to believe they took a short-cut.
Jean came out of the paint booth to meet me while I was on the tour.
You can tell in very short order Jean is a great sincere person, and the apple did not fall from the tree as Matthew gives the same impression.
These two guys love building guitars, their name is on them and they show their pride in quality.

There are many forumites who have had the opportunity to visit the Oxnard factory, I think they will probably all agree.
I appreciate your position and may feel differently if it was my guitar with the problem. Dealing long distance, must be harder too, I have the advantage of being able to walk into the factory with a guitar, although I have not done so yet.

[KenS]

If what I'm reading in your replies is correct, your saying after they repaired it there is only 1mm of saddle left. Also 4mm and 3mm on the low and high E. I am not one to measure using metric so I converted so it would make sense to me.

4mm = 0.15748031496062992
5/32" = 0.1562

So lets just say 4mm is a hair over 5/32". My guitars are set up with the low E at between 5/64" and 6/64", that makes your action about twice as high as mine. 1mm left on the saddle at high E does not leave any room for adjustment lower. If you are having buzzing on the lower frets, I would speculate that there is not enough relief on the neck. If that is the case, when you add the relief you need it is only going to make the action higher not lower.

If this is true then they should take care of this problem for you.

Here is a good site for set up specs.
http://home.nycap.rr.com/nils/BasicGuitarSetup.htm

   

5/32" is dobro action. 

Just for grins I checked my OMV09 using millimeters (I usually think in terms of 1/32").

My guitar has 2mm clearance (6th sting, 12th fret) and 3mm exposed at the corresponding point on the saddle.

I think it's pretty obvious that there is something very wrong with GA-ME's guitar.

Ken

[Walkerman]

"....... Hopefully the Larrivee "fix", in my case, will last.  It plays and sounds good and if I saw it at some shop it would be easy to purchase it again....."


Hmmmmm....sounds to me like they fixed it.

Just because a "martin tech" says it needs a neck re-set doesn't make it so.  Just because your car is running rough, doesn't mean it needs a new engine.  Sometimes a set of plugs will do the trick just fine.  Does that mean it was a quick fix because you had gone in wanting a new engine?  Hardly.

[KenS]

Walkerman,

Whether a guitar needs a neck reset or not is not rocket science.  The O.P. states that his guitar has 4mm action at the 12th fret with 1 mm of saddle exposed - and this after being in the shop.  High action with low saddle height is a classic symptom of neck angle problems.   The perceived need to shave a bridge is a classic symptom of neck angle problems.  Measure your guitar and compare it to his.  If his statements are accurate (and we certainly have no reason to think otherwise), there is a problem - post-repair.  And - even not taking into account anyone's opinion as to the proper fix - the guitar was returned from the factory in what the vast majority of players would consider barely playable action.  I was only half kidding about 5/32" being dobro action - 4-5/32" is a typical action for a guitar used for slide.
The aforementioned frets.com has an excellent article on heck angle diagnosis written by one of the most respected repairpersons in the world.  I think if one reads that and then reads Gi-Mi's accounts here, one would find it almost impossible to make the argument that he does not have a neck angle problem.  I agree with the poster who observed that Larrivee neck angles are shallower than most.  Some of the other posters on this thread had described situations which would seem to support that.  My own experience checking them in stores bears it out.  Larrivees are wonderful guitars and a good one will play very easily with low action (low action typically defined as 3/32" or less).

My OMV-09 neck angle is very close to be perfect (using Ford's tests) and I've described how low my action is with ample saddle adjustment left.   That is how it's supposed to be.  My Collings' neck angle is absolutely perfect as well.  It can be done.

Ken

[Mr_LV19E]

If I sent a Guitar under warranty back to Larrivee and they made it playable, which to me would be no more than 3/32" at the twelfth fret and enough saddle left for some string break. I wouldn't worry about it. Why? Because it's still under warranty. If I had further problems with it 5, 10, 15 years down the road it would still be under warranty and the proper fix would have to be done then. As long as it plays well now is all I would worry about. Larrivee is not going to do a neck reset on every guitar that does not meet the standards on Frets.com website.
The real issue here is that GA-ME's guitar appears to not even be close to having low action, with no adjustment left at all. If I had sent my guitar back and it was returned like that I would be very displeased.
BTW, both my LV and OM don't have anywhere to go on the saddle but the action is low, the new parlor has the same low action and a lot of saddle sticking up above the bridge. Months ago when I put a straight edge on my fretboards it lined up about 1/32" below the top of the bridge, I would call that acceptable.

[gtrplayer]

Walkerman,

Here's a car analogy that actually applies;  You've just picked up your brand new car at the dealership.  After a week you notice a rubbing sound emanating from your rear wheels.  You bring it back to the dealer for repair and he repairs it.  As you drive off the rubbing sound is indeed gone and the brakes and the car work fine.  Later you notice the repair slip mentions that the repair was accomplished by sanding down the brake linings beyond manufacturers specifications.  How do you feel now?

When the neck angle is off on a guitar the best "fix" is adjustment at the dovetail joint to the body.  Sanding the fretboard down to change the neck angle along with shaving the bridge is a workaround.  Yes, the guitar appears "fixed", it even plays well, but with a lower bridge height and a compromised fingerboard.  Any future work must take these changes into consideration. 

BTW I wasn't going to reply to your post but your flip remark about the Martin technician prompted me to.   The Martin tech in question has over forty years experience as a Martin and Taylor factory trained technician.  He knows his stuff and usually holds his opinion until he knows all the facts.

gtrplayer

[Walkerman]

Who says my remark was "flip?"  I meant it.  Do you use the same tech as GAME?  Is he Larrivee trained and certified.

[GA-ME]

Walkerman, I do not care whether you or any other forum member believes what I am saying. In as far as any one can prove reality, many minds stronger than yours or mine have speculated on that without concrete "proof" of reality. For me however, when I pick up the $2000+ instrument and assess the setup using objective, valid, reliable levels of measure than I "know" what is in front of me. I merely am relaying the events as they HAVE HAPPENED TO ME! I'd speculate if it were your two grand you would sing a different melody.
  Understand fellow forum members, I think Larrivee builds some REALLY GOOD GUITARS. But in every manufacturing environment there is a range of results. My particular guitar is one of the ones with problems. That's it in a nutshell. MY LARRIVEE is screwed up. Not all Larrivees. The factory chose a shortcut and I'm unhappy. Simple as that. I'm not wealthy and the 000-60 is a dream guitar. A lifetime purchase for me, if you will. Others have suggested selling it on e-bay. All that does is make someone else a victim and I believe in Karma. Not gonna happen with me. Perhaps, I'm paying for one of my many transgressions with this situation. Who knows?
A guitar is more than wood and glue and metal. I've bonded with this instrument and it has given me several songs better than I am capable of creating. Whatever the result of this situation, I'll fix Frankie correctly. I'd no more throw her away than my fiance tossed me when I was "broken". I am a cripple, due to spinal cord injury, but I'm still useful just as Frankie is still useful. I'm not here to bash anyone or anything. I'm relaying the facts as I KNOW them. People are free to make their own determination. As far as my luthiers knowledge is concerned, there is no question about competence. This is a man that began playing banjo professionally before middle school age and plays and repairs EVERY STRINGED instrument you'd find in any bluegrass/oldtime setting. All at the professional level. He is a gifted musician and luthier as well as a damn fine human being. When he realized my financial situation post injury, he put me into the save the old guitar category when he worked on my instruments. In other words, drop the instrument off let him have whatever time he can find for the repair around his bigger jobs and charge me about 25% of the actual cost. He has said that it might be with in Larrivee specs with the bridge shaving, but that doesn't mean it was the correct or proper fix. I'm not going to say any more about this until I hear back from my dealer, because I'm starting to get  to feeling like I need to make personal attacks and I don't want to do that. The situation is what it is. It will work out. EVERYTHING happens for a purpose, there is no coincidence.

[Mr_LV19E]

Good reply GA-ME, just keep thinking positive and I'm sure it will all be worked out. 

[gtrplayer]

   Best of luck to you GA-ME.  It's been my experience that Larrivee cares and often will respond to customer concerns however it may require some effort on your part.  They do build fine guitars but recognize that they're not infallible. 

   With regards to the naysayers and trolls who frequent this forum, the best response is indifference.  They're just out to prove the old adage that "misery loves company".


gtrplayer

[PortHueneme]

GA-ME,
  I do most admire your courage and obviously have some physical issues. I fully understand your bond with "Frankie".
The OOO is a dream guitar, I have an SD I feel the same way about.
 Walkerman & I (but we have never met person to person) are both Ventura County Locals. We have both been to the Oxnard factory and met the Larrivees.
You crafted a very well worded post, you are obviously articulate. I urge you to contact Matthew, express yourself honestly and sincerely (like your post).
I just can't imagine that he will let you down.

A guitar is meant to bring joy & happiness, not the grief you seem to be getting.
With you in spirit...

[Walkerman]

GA-ME,
  I do most admire your courage and obviously have some physical issues. I fully understand your bond with "Frankie".
The OOO is a dream guitar, I have an SD I feel the same way about.
 Walkerman & I (but we have never met person to person) are both Ventura County Locals. We have both been to the Oxnard factory and met the Larrivees.
You crafted a very well worded post, you are obviously articulate. I urge you to contact Matthew, express yourself honestly and sincerely (like your post).
I just can't imagine that he will let you down.

A guitar is meant to bring joy & happiness, not the grief you seem to be getting.
With you in spirit...

PH...I agree. However,  I think what raised my hackles was that GA-ME gave us his side of the story, including his note to Luke saying 1st and last Larrivee, etc, and then claimed that Larrivee did NOT do the proper repair, and then asked us for our opinion.  Seems he was only prepared to read opinions that agreed with his.  Now, you and I, and some others, stated our opinion that the folks at Larrivee would do the proper repairs, and if they felt that the neck angle was correct, it most likely was.  To hint that they didn't do a neck re-set because it involved too much labor seems inplausable, since we know for a fact the Jean has gone so far as to build an entire new guitar (of a discontinued model, no less) in order to satisfy a Larrivee owner.
Additionally, it seems out of order for GAME to threaten to make "personal attacks" on folks who don't happen to agree with him.   Lastly, and then I think that this horse will have been beaten to death, it seems silly to have aired this whole thing out in public BEFORE his dealer has responded to him,  as if by doing so, he would be forcing the Larrivees into doing right by him.  As I said before, he posted earlier that he sent his "beloved Frankie for a neck reset."  Nothing else was going to please him.  I do feel for him, but it seems that he has painted himself into a corner.

[flatlander]

If Larrivee's cust service is as good as myself and other's have experienced, then he hasn't painted himself into a corner.
He's emotionally attached to Frankie. I like the way he says it has given him songs, as that's the way I feel about a good guitar. Larrivee should understand that.  Would I have handled it differently? Yes but I'm 50 years old and some things took me a long time to figure out!
Communication is almost always good and I'm sure in this case it would be. I'd call them on the phone and get thier side on the technicals and see if they'll do reset if still deemed to be correct solution.  If no satisfaction THEN I would raise Cane.

[dxn2]

GA-ME,

Everyone is entitled to have bad day. Perhaps you caught the Larrivee folks on one of theirs.  I'd give them a call (always better than email) and respectfully state your case again.

It's amusing to see the Fanboys (look it up) come rushing to defend the Larrivee honor.

Don