Thermo Cured Tops

[William2]

I don't go to music stores. As a left-hand player, they usually have nothing for me to try out. Has anyone here compared two of the same model instruments one being thermo cured and the other not cured? I've listened to some comparison videos on You Tube, but I can't say I hear much of a difference at least on the videos I have viewed. Does the thermo cured top have a sound advantage over the non-cured top?

[StringPicker6]

I recently played a Yamaha FSX5 with the cured top. Sounded gorgeous. I couldn't compare with non cured, but it sounded good enough to potentially buy it on the spot.

[William2]

I don't go to music stores. As a left-hand player, they usually have nothing for me to try out. Has anyone here compared two of the same model instruments one being thermo cured and the other not cured? I've listened to some comparison videos on You Tube, but I can't say I hear much of a difference at least on the videos I have viewed. Does the thermo cured top have a sound advantage over the non-cured top?

Thank you. I've seen reviews where the demonstrator says there is an improved sound. But they are trying to sell the guitar. I've seen videos comparing Eastman guitars that were cured and not cured. I always liked the no- cured Eastman. I was informed that they were new to it and that they have perfected the process. I heard all Eastman instruments will have the cured tops this year to increase their top wood availability.

[ducktrapper]

I don't buy Chinese sh*t if I can help it. Lots of great American made guitars including the ones made by the name that hosts this site.

Did Martin "thermo cure" all those great guitars they made over the years? Sounds like marketing BS to me. Besides, every guitar will sound different so how can you know if "thermo cure" is the difference?   

[eded]

I don't buy Chinese sh*t if I can help it. Lots of great American made guitars including the ones made by the name that hosts this site.

Did Martin "thermo cure" all those great guitars they made over the years? Sounds like marketing BS to me. Besides, every guitar will sound different so how can you know if "thermo cure" is the difference?   

Lots of folks use torrefied wood for guitar tops.  Martin has, Larrivee has,  Collings (and their splinter company, I forget the name) has, and lots of small shop luthiers use it.  It makes sense that some of the imports would give it a go.  I've never tried one (that I remember) so I'll withhold opinion until I do.

Ed

[William2]

I don't buy Chinese sh*t if I can help it. Lots of great American made guitars including the ones made by the name that hosts this site.

Did Martin "thermo cure" all those great guitars they made over the years? Sounds like marketing BS to me. Besides, every guitar will sound different so how can you know if "thermo cure" is the difference?   

It seems like Martin and other companies are doing a lot more thermo curing now. And it is supposed to give the instrument the sound of older instrument. I also take issue with your comment that every guitar sounds different. There are some makes like Waterloo & Collings have a certain sound. And I think there is a sound to the Larrivee brand also. I think you made a similar comment yesterday on my other post that every guitar sounds different. There is no way an Eastman (Adirondack top / mahogany body) is going to sound anything like the Martin DSS-17 (Sitka top / mahogany body).

[eded]

It seems like Martin and other companies are doing a lot more thermo curing now. And it is supposed to give the instrument the sound of older instrument. I also take issue with your comment that every guitar sounds different. There are some makes like Waterloo Collings have a certain sound. And I think there is a sound to the Larrivee brand also. I think you made a similar comment yesterday on my other post that every guitar sounds different. There is no way an Eastman (Adirondack top / mahogany body) is going to sound anything like the Martin DSS-17 (Sitka top / mahogany body).

I take exception to your issue...  lol.  I'd challenge you to find 2 DSS-17's that sound the same side by side.  I'd offer the same challenge to Larrivee D-03's 0r L-09's.  Or name your make and model, you will not find 2 that sound the same. 

Ed

[William2]

I take exception to your issue...  lol.  I'd challenge you to find 2 DSS-17's that sound the same side by side.  I'd offer the same challenge to Larrivee D-03's 0r L-09's.  Or name your make and model, you will not find 2 that sound the same. 

Ed

I think you are talking about very small issues on sound difference. I'm talking about a quality of sound. The Martin 17 series to my mind was made to compete with the waterloo sound (that thin, boxy, bluesy type of sound). I've listened to a lot of DSS-17 videos. They all sound the same to me (thin and powerful and woody). I love that sound and if I played a style of music the instrument is suited for, I'd re-buy the instrument in a second. I also am thinking that the gloss vs matt finish has an effect on the sound. I've listened to the new Martin 18 and 28s with both finishes.

[ducktrapper]

It seems like Martin and other companies are doing a lot more thermo curing now. And it is supposed to give the instrument the sound of older instrument. I also take issue with your comment that every guitar sounds different. There are some makes like Waterloo & Collings have a certain sound. And I think there is a sound to the Larrivee brand also. I think you made a similar comment yesterday on my other post that every guitar sounds different. There is no way an Eastman (Adirondack top / mahogany body) is going to sound anything like the Martin DSS-17 (Sitka top / mahogany body).

Sure. But that's not what I said. If you compare two seemingly identical models from the same builder you will have two different guitars. If they sound different, how can you know what accounts for the difference? With all due respect, judging from your posts, you seem to be a perfect subject for marketing.

[teh]

Four of my six better guitars (3 Larrivees and 3 Martins) range from 8 to 47 years old and have non-torrified Sitka spruce tops while the other two have non torrified moonwood spruce or mahogany tops. To my ear, these guitars all sound great. Two of the guitars have scalloped bracing, three are 12 fretters and all three of my Martins have 1/4" top bracing. Two are rosewood, two are mahogany, one is flamed maple and one is walnut. Six different shapes include Dreadnought, OM, 000, LV, LSV and Parlor. I use light gauge strings on everything.

The point is, there are so many factors that go into the design, construction and end result of a finished guitar.

P.S. I haven't played a guitar with a torrified top but I wonder if speeding up the process of curing a top instead of letting it cure naturally may cause structural problems down the road. We probably won't know for 10 or 15 years and it will probably be blamed on an improper humidity.

[William2]

Four of my six better guitars (3 Larrivees and 3 Martins) range from 8 to 47 years old and have non-torrified Sitka spruce tops while the other two have non torrified moonwood spruce or mahogany tops. To my ear, these guitars all sound great. Two of the guitars have scalloped bracing, three are 12 fretters and all three of my Martins have 1/4" top bracing. Two are rosewood, two are mahogany, one is flamed maple and one is walnut. Six different shapes include Dreadnought, OM, 000, LV, LSV and Parlor. I use light gauge strings on everything.

The point is, there are so many factors that go into the design, construction and end result of a finished guitar.

P.S. I haven't played a guitar with a torrified top but I wonder if speeding up the process of curing a top instead of letting it cure naturally may cause structural problems down the road. We probably won't know for 10 or 15 years and it will probably be blamed on an improper humidity.


One of the reasons I was interested in this in addition to not really hearing a favorable difference between the tops on Eastman videos, is that Eastman is adding on over $100 for a torrefied top and it appears all of their tops will be torrefied. Aesthetically, I prefer the lighter look of a natural top. By the way, with all those different instruments you have, do you have a favorite and what top does it have? I was just playing my Martin Street Master this morning. I have it for sale, but I am considering removing it. What a sound difference from a spruce top instrument.

[StringPicker6]

Fun fact: the Vikings did a form of wood torrification when they built their boats.

[teh]

William, it's really hard to pick a favorite but I will say this:

My D35 is probably my sentimental favorite because it was my first and the Spruce Top is now approaching 48 years old. I once counted the rings in the grain on the top and estimated that this spruce tree was probably born between 1800 and 1810. I usually keep it tuned in dropped D but I use it for both a lot of finger picking and rhythm playing.

My son plays a lot of fingerstyle blues so my Parlor spends a lot of time at his house because it is hands down his favorite. This was my first Larrivee and I had two mahogany, two rosewood and this Special Edition Maple to choose from.

My 8 year old custom Martin 000 has everything I wanted; 12 fret, short scale, slotted headstock with a three piece mahogany back along with scalloped bracing and low profile neck to match my OM.

My Forum VI LSV had the best setup out of the box from the factory and the only thing I've done is upgrade the pins, change the strings and order an archtop case. I'm confident that the moon wood top and walnut are continuing to sound better each day. I would have liked a short scale but the majority of the other forum members wanted a 25.5 inch scale.

I'm going to try to get out to Sweetwater to try a Larrivee 0040 with mahogany top, back and sides. They are a 5 hour drive from my house and that would be my fourth 12 fret guitar. I mentioned in an earlier post that I found a company called Bent Twig Guitars in Montana and the two guys that run it make a Mini-Dreadnought. That guitar is too expensive to play sight unseen.

[teh]

Here is the link to Bent Twig Guitars website. Torrified tops are an option and I linked to the Sitka walnut option.

https://www.benttwigguitars.com/copy-of-mini-dread-sitka-walnut

[ducktrapper]

Claims vs evidence. Anyone can claim anything regarding a product but that doesn't make the claim true. With regards to guitars, in my experience it is impossible to make every guitar from the same builder using the same process sound the same. If that's true, how does any claim hold water? Did any of those old classic Martins and Gibsons use any of these processes? If these processes are intended to reproduce the sound of those guitars is there any way to prove it? I remain unconvinced. You build to certain specifications and while the quality of almost every instrument is high, now and then magic happens and you produce an absolute gem.  In that case, you play them and find them.   

[StringPicker6]

I don't see any major harm in manipulating the tone wood using fortification to get a nicer sound. The only big disadvantage is that you don't get to grow and mature along with your guitar.  So there's the missing magic of a guitar turning into your beloved companion. 

[William2]

I don't see any major harm in manipulating the tone wood using fortification to get a nicer sound. The only big disadvantage is that you don't get to grow and mature along with your guitar.  So there's the missing magic of a guitar turning into your beloved companion. 

But if you are old, you don't have time to age with your instrument. Having listened to a number of Eastman comparisons, of torrefied vs non-torrefied tops, I prefer the non-torrefied top. It is more open balanced, and louder to me. And this has been my opinion on other Eastman comparison videos of this topic. Unfortunately, Eastman has decided to make all of their instrument with a torrefied top. I'm glad my Eastman is a non-torrefied top and without a pickguard. Here is a comparison of like instruments but with torrefied and non-torrefied tops. Ian Meadows is one of my favorite demonstrators. He lets the instrument talk and doesn't use then demo to showcase himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWEjmC6e0Ck

[B0WIE]

I don't buy Chinese sh*t if I can help it. Lots of great American made guitars including the ones made by the name that hosts this site.

Did Martin "thermo cure" all those great guitars they made over the years? Sounds like marketing BS to me. Besides, every guitar will sound different so how can you know if "thermo cure" is the difference?   

I agree with the first statement. Mostly from a political/humanitarian standpoint though.

Regarding differences, the process has a real affect. Fair to say it's better than raw. But, my personal feeling is that a naturally aged top has greater potential. The aged tops I've played sounded nice. But, not as nice as I'd expect from a 20+ year old instrument. Just my personal sentiment. I think it would be great for lower cost instruments but that's not how it's used. It's, of course, an up-sell. Companies love the up sell but this isn't an upgrade for me personally.

[Silence Dogood]

The best way to get a guitar with aged wood is to buy an older guitar, or buy a new one and keep it a long time.  Play the heck out of it and make your own mojo.

[B0WIE]

The best way to get a guitar with aged wood is to buy an older guitar, or buy a new one and keep it a long time.  Play the heck out of it and make your own mojo.

That's the main reason I buy instruments with some age on them. I just like the sound better. Getting a discount is a bonus.