Boutique guitars (Do we really need them?)

[ronmac]

To quote Dana Bourgeois (in his discussion on finish types) "...guitars ought to be judged by the music that can be made on them, rather than by the presence or absence of particular components. Design details, material selection, construction method, et cetera, are at best only arbitrary indicators of quality. At the end of the day, these factors are relatively insignificant in comparison to tone, playability, durability, and aesthetic considerations."

...and if we apply what Dana says about instruments to the builders: "Luthiers ought to be judged by the music that can be made on their guitars, rather than the number of instruments they make, or the price they demand."

Meanwhile, back to the OP's original question...

If we think we do, we do.

If we think we don't, we don't.

[jeremy3220]

Btw, Jean could and does still build the odd custom style guitar and they ain't too bad. 

You may notice the term I used was custom style. I meant deluxe. Top of the line. Comparable in quality to what other well known luthiers are putting out that are commonly referred to as "custom" built.

If you put these together you get... Jean could and does still build the odd top of the line guitar comparable in quality to what other well known luthiers are putting out that are commonly referred to as "custom" built.

duck agrees Larrivee rarely can match the boutique quality, so it looks like we can drop the discussion.

[ducktrapper]

David may well recomend a clone of mine if you primarily play celtic/fingerstyle with a very light touch in drop tunings and rely upon sustain as i do. An 1 & 7/8ths flatish "classical" neck carve, short scale, 2 & 1/4 saddle spaceing are my on my list of choices as well.

But if you play a diffrent style, or a broader range of styles he may well have a diffrent suggestion. certianly if you play faster and more agressivly than i do this particular guitar may not be a good choice atall... but that is something my Martin D shines at.

Would be cool if that was your ideal as well! If not? any one of a number of talented Luithers are standing by waiting for your call, some pretty dear, some not as much...

Ta,

d.

I'm sticking to my point. No luthier makes a custom guitar in the same way a custom boot maker does. He is still making his versions of one size fits all with appointments that attract you rather than "fit" you, imo. I'm betting that you can't get him to make his guitars a quarter inch smaller here and a half inch bigger here and just a little more here and a little less there. But alright, even if yours does, not many do.   

[ducktrapper]

If you put these together you get... Jean could and does still build the odd top of the line guitar comparable in quality to what other well known luthiers are putting out that are commonly referred to as "custom" built.

duck agrees Larrivee rarely can match the boutique quality, so it looks like we can drop the discussion.

It's almost what I've been saying all along actually although I'm not sure how the word, rarely, fits in. They either can or they can't for the purpose of this discussion. 

[jeremy3220]

I'm sticking to my point. No luthier makes a custom guitar in the same way a custom boot maker does. He is still making his versions of one size fits all with appointments that attract you rather than "fit" you, imo. I'm betting that you can't get him to make his guitars a quarter inch smaller here and a half inch bigger here and just a little more here and a little less there. But alright, even if yours does, not many do.   

More importantly you can't order boots with wider string spacing or brazilian rosewood fretboards. This is what I've been preaching about on the boot forum lately. Custom boots are a joke! Extra wide to fit my foot?.. who cares, I wan't cocobolo sides on it. They all think I'm nuts but they just don't get it.

[jeremy3220]

It's almost what I've been saying all along actually although I'm not sure how the word, rarely, fits in.

You said 'odd', synonyms for odd are - extraordinary, unusual, rare, uncommon

[ducktrapper]

You said 'odd', synonyms for odd are - extraordinary, unusual, rare, uncommon

So ... you're suggesting I don't know what the word means? 
The thread, it seems to me, has become not about whether we NEED boutique guitars but a discussion of the definitions and true differences between the two camps. If a factory canproduce the same quality as the garage, which you have now admitted, the differences involved may be what's intended not an inability to produce what is being called boutique level quality. Most of these manufacturers have some sort of custom shop, after all. So in the end, comparing a high level boutique to the lowest level Martin or Larrivée is misleading, at best and proves nothing about quality. A Chevette is not a Cadillac but GM still makes a Cadillac. Yes, sure a Cadillac is not Rolls Royce but some folks (who can afford both) actually prefer them. The differences are not something that makes one car get there before the other, after all. In other words, not performance issues. Anyway, you should compare the top of the line to the top of the line. No? So, yep you need a "boutique" guitar as much as someone needs a Rolls Royce, a Cadillac or my 000-50 TSB, for that matter. All the justifications and explanations are probably the same, as well.   

[jeremy3220]

If a factory canproduce the same quality as the garage, which you have now admitted, the differences involved may be what's intended not an inability to produce what is being called boutique level quality.    

I said just because it's a 'boutique' guitar doesn't mean it's better, but I still think the best of the boutique builders are producing better guitars than the large factories can. I think when you mass produce guitars you have to cut corners that a small production wouldn't. If you look on the inside of a new Larrivee you'll see braces glued down just as they were cut - no hand shaping them or the top to get the best sound. There's other stuff in that link I posted earlier.  But the important thing is what the buyer thinks. If you don't think certain things like hand voicing are important then they're not.

On 'garages' - The expensive CNC machines and other expensive tools factories use are great for mass production but a skilled luthier can do anything they can without even using power tools. If you think differently, name something. I'm always one for learning about this.

[ducktrapper]

I don't think differently, the difference as I've said is not the difficulty of the "factory" producing "boutique" quality but the inability of the "boutique" maker to make 03-like models and be competitive. That's where your CNC and other advantages really make a mark. These people, as someone mentioned earlier, aren't exactly in the same business and certainly are not focused on the same buyer. We are eating the same hot dog from opposite ends and now I'm stopping before I have to kiss you.     

[GA-ME]

 "Of the four, two - the two L's - had unacceptably shallow neck angles - a 24" straightedge landed well under the top of the bridge.  These were brand new guitars made in 2007-2008.  So no one is perfect here.  And I don't see why anyone would feel the need to denigrate another company in order to justify their preference for Larrivee."

My 000-60 is one of those very shallow neck angles that Larrivee seems to so routinely produce. Larrivee's warranty solution for my guitar...shave the bridge and send it back. I could have had the bridge shaved locally for less than the cost of shipping. Clearly, this choice was based on economics rather than correctness of repair methodology. The shallow neck angle on so many guitars is clearly the result of lax quality control since the high end boxes moved to Cali. Also, as time goes by, the finish is sinking into holes, on the back, in the rosewood. Hundreds of tiny depressions into the wood. The finish indents are the result of not taking the time to properly seal the rosewood prior to finishing. These type of problems are the result of trying to keep costs down and production being ramped up. Can anyone really believe that the switch to Tusq recently was a consideration based on tonal properties and not on saving a few bucks per guitar? For the money Larrivee makes a nice guitar but the days of a small company taking personal care of the customer are long gone. You will not often find this lax attitude in a small shop producing few instruments. The builder that cuts these kinds of corners would soon be employed in other work as the orders dried up. Duck has a point about the older guitars, they indeed were what we would now call boutique instruments. Larrivee's original quality, as a small hand producer, combined with keen business acumen is what has allowed the dramatic growth of the company. But make no mistake, those days are long gone. Now they are just anothor corporation ruled by the bottom line. C'mon Duck, and the other Larrivee Disciples, educate me now all about how Tusq is superior to natural materials like bone and ivory now that Larrivee is using cheeper materials in their place...............

[ducktrapper]

  C'mon Duck, and the other Larrivee Disciples, educate me now all about how Tusq is superior to natural materials like bone and ivory now that Larrivee is using cheeper materials in their place...............

<Cheeper> Some kind of bird bones, perhaps? Higher education requires a desire to learn, Grasshopper. When you start with an attitude and much wrong information, I'm afraid you're beyond my poor teaching abilities. But first of all, I'm only a humble and lovable Larrivée player. If you're looking for "Larrivée Disciples", may I pass you on to Grit Laskin, David Ianone, Linda Manzer, Sergei De Jonge and David Weber to name a few. Their websites are available and I'm sure they'd love to answer your questions. On second thought, since you obviously have your mind made up, why bother?     

[ducktrapper]

Mr. Duck, I've had my L-10 for 28 years. It has been incredible and I've had a deep attachment to it since I bought it which pretty much developed into it being part of me. Never even got another guitar for 25 years. Not because I couldn't afford it if I really wanted, but because I never could justify it when the L-10 sounded so great and covered different styles as well. So I've loved it and it used to have the extra mojo of being so rare in U.S. especially the south. That being said, you seem to have great knowledge of Larrivee and history. What I remember well, probably from old frets magazines, was Jean resisting for years going into expanding models much or making cheaper models. He said he wanted to make only top quality guitars. What do you recall of that? Why did he say that?  Further more I remember when they expanded thier line and made lower priced models that the article reported that the sales force had won out. So I remember when when Mr. Larrivee had the "problem" of equating price to quality in the 80's.
  People don't seem to realize that Larrivees used to be pretty damn pricey. I know mine was more than a real D-28 Martin at the time or Gibsons (Gibsons hadn't gotten rediculus yet) I paid 1400.00 for mine in 80' and that was way below list and a heck of a lot of money back then. A plainer L-9 (or was it L-5, 9 I thinK they only had rosewood) could be had for 1200.00 and that was the cheapest. A lot of bucks back then when a D-28 was 1000.00 or less.Were they better then? I wouldn't of traded mine for a new one, even with emotional attachment aside. Would you? I love my new 000-60 by the way.

Mine cost me $675.00 one year used (without the original case) in 1976. They were selling for $825.00 new at the time. A Martin was still slightly more, I believe. So yeah they were not "cheep" as one of our experts might say. They were among the first made and the very first "boutique" guitar I had ever seen. But of course, he's forgotten everything he used to know, I guess. I think the business with electric guitars and keeping his trained workers during a down turn probably changed his philosophy. At this juncture, it would appear that Larrivée is well positioned to stay in the guitar business regardless of severe market changes. I wonder how many of these boutique builders could survive as well. In which case, what good is a lifetime guarantee, btw?         

[KenS]

Regarding the question about Tusq vs. bone:  at StewMac a Martin-style Tusq nut costs $6.09; a white bone is $4.75.

I prefer bone myself, but it's not a matter of cost.  I didn't know that Larrivee had switched back to Tusq, but I suspect the reason could be consistency.  As an organic material, bone can have irregularities that impact its use as saddle material - especially when used with under-the-saddle transducers.  So there are actually some very good arguments for using Tusq.

And, of course, no one uses ivory in the price ranges we are talking about.

Ken

[LawDogStrgsAttach]

" Also, as time goes by, the finish is sinking into holes, on the back, in the rosewood. Hundreds of tiny depressions into the wood. The finish indents are the result of not taking the time to properly seal the rosewood prior to finishing. These type of problems are the result of trying to keep costs down and production being ramped up.

Not saying I know anything about building guitars, but you can easily feel the grain in my SCGC (and no, it is NOT dried out).  I realize the SCGC is finished in lacquer, but not sure that the depressions are flaws(?). 

I have enjoyed reading this thread, and I am a Larrivee devotee as far as mass-produced guitars are concerned.  They easily whip Taylor and most of Martin at any price, which makes their value that much better once you consider the price.  BUT....if you doubt there is a difference with boutique guitars, I will say it again, please play a Santa Cruz. 

And just a thought (certainly some of you know more than I on this), but I do not think Collings is such a small shop any longer.  I think they are well into the 2,000+/year realm.  SCGC made 700 guitars last year.  Richard Hoover practically invented the "bench-style" of building that SCGC still uses today - no compromise.  I know 2000 is not a lot, but when you are speaking of boutiques, crossing the 1200+ mark indicates changes into a factory style.

[mika]

Sorry, I did not read thru all the posts, so if this is a repeat of previous posts....forgive me.  My first impression when I saw this thread is that all high end "factory" guitar companies were once boutique companies.  They had to start somewhere.  So, yes we do need boutique guitars.  These independent luthiers infuse the industry with new ideas and methods.  This is a different industry than say, microchips.  I believe guitar builders freely exchange ideas vs. producing microchips which is very secretive.  I heard in an interview that Jean Larrivee and Bob Taylor are close friends and have learned from each other.

[ducktrapper]

Sorry, I did not read thru all the posts, so if this is a repeat of previous posts....forgive me.  My first impression when I saw this thread is that all high end "factory" guitar companies were once boutique companies.  They had to start somewhere.  So, yes we do need boutique guitars.  These independent luthiers infuse the industry with new ideas and methods.  This is a different industry than say, microchips.  I believe guitar builders freely exchange ideas vs. producing microchips which is very secretive.  I heard in an interview that Jean Larrivee and Bob Taylor are close friends and have learned from each other.

You've actually summed it up nicely.

[GA-ME]

Duck, gotta say you are funny! By the way Duck, I've taken the pebble from the hand......... 

[ducktrapper]

Duck, gotta say you are funny! By the way Duck, I've taken the pebble from the hand......... 

I've certainly been called worse. I'm a handful, if nothing else. What are you going to do with that useless ol' pebble by the way?     

[Danny]

This is a quote from flatlander earlier and I think it is worth considering.
                   " I find these discussions helpful in regards to giving me things to think about, what to watch and listen for, knowing what's available. Then you can know what to look for, TRY THEM YOURSELF, and see if you can figure out as quickly as possible what sounds and works best for you. A better frame for this discussion for me would be what are the differences. With all the individuals out there making instruments that could add a bundle of things to think about."                       This thread has been helpful for me, but not on the original premise of "do we need them or not"but WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES" No need to bash anyone or any company or to prop up Larrivee, just some good information, facts, experiences and a few spats and drunken brawls.... well maybe we don't need the latter. Sure do like top play em, whoever and however they make em. I know pretty quick when I pick up a git if I like it or not. I bet most who are interested in this thread do also. Danny

[sdelsolray]

...
If you're looking for "Larrivée Disciples", may I pass you on to Grit Laskin, David Ianone, Linda Manzer, Sergei De Jonge and David Weber to name a few.    

Just to set the factual record straight, David Webber (two b's) is not a Larrivee disciple.  He never worked for Larrivee, never apprenticed under Jean, etc., etc., etc.  Webber had his shop near the Larrivee Vancouver shop.  Jean and David are friends and have discussed things at great length many times in the past.  No doubt David learned a few things from those chats.  No doubt Jean learned something too.