circle of fifths ,do I need it for guitar?

[DaveyO]

Excuse my ignorance, I have heard of the circle of fifths for yrs, does if pertain to guitar playing?
Even my flute playing kid is learning it,
I learned some theory on the bass yrs ago and some of it appys to the guitar
do I need to know it ?
Dave

[tuneful]

My opinion: no you don´t "need" it but it is so beautiful to see how the music works!  Useful, too.  Much of our music moves around the circle counterclockwise (that is by 4ths) until at the end a resolution is reached at a the chord whose root is --eureka!!-- the key in which the piece is written.

It is also useful for comping b/c there is an easy-to-learn zigzag fretboard pattern on the 5th and 6th strings that takes you around the circle of 5ths.  You just root your chord on the adjacent string in the same fret (when moving from the 6th to the 5th string) and 2 frets toward the nut when moving from the 5th to the 6th string.  When you get down towards the nut, you jump back up the neck 5 frets and start the process over again.

Maybe somebody has a diagram at the ready to make this more visually intelligible.  P.S.

[unclrob]

Like a fool I never learned but "HELL YA".Knowledged learned,knowledge gained.Its a beautiful thing.

[bearsville0]

Yes you do need to know it. It puts the notes into a meaningful relationship with each other and gives you a language for describing a pattern that can be applied in all keys.

[ducktrapper]

It's part of understanding how music and especially harmony works so it pertains to any instrument. You'll use it even if you don't officially learn it so ... yes you need to learn it to become a more complete musician and better guitarist.

[Queequeg]

Maybe somebody has a diagram at the ready to make this more visually intelligible.  P.S.

[DaveyO]

Ok,
will do , just been lazy to learn it and trying to get better at the guitar
thanks for all the responses.
Dave

[Mantula]

You'll find this same math in my Music Ruler (topic).
The pfd is temporarily taken offline though, because I'm seriously considering a distribution of this tool (manufacture price offers are coming in as we speak).

[flathead]

DaveyO. Here is a link with as good a description and chart as I have seen. Hope it's clear as mud. By the way how is that MMV.... you haven't sold it yet, have you
Flathead.

http://www.folkblues.com/theory/circle_5ths.htm

[DaveyO]

Thanks Flathead,
no I havent sold it yet ,but you never know, I still like my Larrivee better,not as pretty but feels better in my hands.
would really love a D09, maybe eventually I'll sell the Martin and get a shiney D09!
who knows?I may have won the lotto , I havnt checked my numbers!
Dave

[flatlander]

Thanks, Flathead. Nice that that link gives practical uses. I'll study it 1 fifth at a time.

[The Hickman]

I think it's needed by every musician; especially for improvisational players. Circle of Fifths and Fourths. Basic music theory, IMHO, is essential for all musicians, performers & the hobbyist. It's so much harder (but not impossible) to grow in your craft with out a knowledge of it. It's the foundation of music. I know once I started studying music (learning the "why's" and "how come's" of music) I was freed up to new aspects of creativity. Some people feel that it's restricting, but it gets rid of the sloppy solo and the monotonous riffs. In regards to the circle of fifths, I wouldn't start there if I were you. That's like starting on step three when you need to start on step one. There is so much really good information on very reputable sites that offers DVD's or books on the subject of rudiments. There's lots of good free info on the WWW too, just becareful and compare it to tried and true instructors. I had a few bad experiences and learned some incorrect/bad habits by trusting some of the free info out there.

[andy thompson]

Heres a couple of mnemonics for you..

Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds......this refers to the number of sharps in a key eg if you are playing in the key of D major, which has two sharps F & C..Fat Cats, whatever key, they are always in that order

Battle Ends And Down Goes Charlies Father....This refers to major keys and goes anticlockwise.eg G flat is six steps away from C B E A D G C (all flats)

Why start at C? Well this key has no sharps or flats.

It is also useful for determining the relative minor of a key..... for C its A minor.

DISCLAIMER  I just copied this, almost verbatim from "Music theory for dummies", like you Im still working on it. Its a useful book as its enabled me to see its uses, but I dont think its definitive.

Before I read it though, I used to sit staring at the circle thinking "What the ****, Im never going to understand it. Its not a tool for me yet, but coupled with learning the neck and a few key signatures could keep me noodling MUSICALLY for a long time.

Now what about altered tunings does it still hold good? 

[surfinbernard]

I just wanted to add that the circle of fifths is theory and does not relate to any musical instrument in a practical way. It is a way to understand the different keys, their key signatures (sharps and flats) and how they relate to each other, there is nothing there which will help your playing whatever instrument you play. Of course it helps to understand keys, which chords and notes belong in each key, relative keys and so on, but IMO this is all less important on the guitar than, say, keys because it is easy to transpose on guitar even if you have no idea what the theory is behind it, because there are repetitive patterns and shapes we can use on the guitar without having to spare much of a thought for the notes, chords or keys being used. I dunno, I suppose what I am trying to say is that different musicians think differently about their playing and while some will consciously think about which keys, notes, chord bases etc. they are working with at all times, others will just feel their way whether or not they have theoretical knowledge or understanding. I don't think there is any inherent *need* to understand the theory behind what you play, if you are interested in it then use it, it may help, but if it bores you it's unlikely to do much for your playing. With music it is possible to 'know' music inside out and back to front without ever knowing the name of a note, because the theory is just a front we attach to the reality which can exist in its entirety without being named. I suppose that's why it's called theory, because the practice can exist entirely separately from it. Just my humble opinion.

[ST]

At the risk of really annoying someone let me offer this modified version of the circle of fifths diagram for people who play by ear.

If we take the key of C (marked with a 1) then if you are in that key and playing chords, the other chords that I find you are most likely to play are in the large yellow box marked 1,2,3,4,5,6. 
It is very likely that you will play the ones marked 4 and 5 (left and right of the main key)
If something sounds minor it is probably the one marked 6 (directly below the main key)
If something sounds minor and it is not 6, then it is probably 2 or 3

You can find this relationship in any key in the circle.
Main key - middle
4th and 5th: left and right
6th (relative minors) directly below
other related minors below 4th and 5th



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[ST]

A little more about using the modified diagram above...



If I am playing with others and we are in the key of C someone may say,
"the verse is 1,4,1,5,1, 6, 1"  and I take that to mean

C F C G C Am C

or
"the turnaround is a "2, 5, 1" and that means

Dm G C

When I see this in writing - it is usually done with roman numerals.
I   IV   I   V   I    VI    I
and the turnaround
II  V  I 

Now if we have to do the song in a different key, the numbers remain the same and in my head I just travel around the circle of fifths to get to the right key. The relationships remain the same.

Does that help anybody?

[ST]

Here is the cycle turned 90 degrees to the right so that the main key is A.

Sorry - I don't have a good way to turn the letters around so that they are upright.

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[flatlander]

I don't think there is any inherent *need* to understand the theory behind what you play, if you are interested in it then use it, it may help, but if it bores you it's unlikely to do much for your playing. With music it is possible to 'know' music inside out and back to front without ever knowing the name of a note, because the theory is just a front we attach to the reality which can exist in its entirety without being named. I suppose that's why it's called theory, because the practice can exist entirely separately from it. Just my humble opinion.

Some people are indeed wired to have music and in particular, harmony, naturally wired into them. Most do not. I've always played by ear, but learning a little about chord construction and building harmonies off different intervals greatly expanding my playing.  After I understood some of these things a broader range of options became available and now over time have become "natural" so they can be very expressive and not mechanical.  Many of the chords I use now I found myself and you don't see them in books.  I may use them for thier sound or for thier function but most I found the same way. When working out a song I'm looking for a chord that is either close by where I already am or one that will have a particular movement going on say the bass line.
Knowing what chords "usually" go with what key is very helpful as well. Especially when new to playing. It can greatly reduce the time it takes to figure a song out by ear.
As far as repeating patterns, for me barre chords going up the neck make it easy enough to transpose just by shifting pattern up or down neck, but acoustic players are likely to get a lot of use out of open chords, even up the neck open chords. For lead work, simply shifting patterns works pretty good but learning and thinking about scales allowed me to bust out of over used patterns. It allowed me to begin process of meshing all the notes into one big happy stew. In other words, looking at the scales individually allowed me to think about mixing them together more.
Some people that comes naturally to as well but didn't for me. I've personally known a world class player and a good local player who knew nothing about theory. They would tell you to shut up cause you're messin thier head up. But for most it's helpful. It's very rare that you hear people who have learned some degree of theory to tell you it's a waste. It's more common to hear people who have never learned it to say it's not needed.  IMO

[carruth]

Most interesting.Thankyou to all contributors to this thread.

[ST]

Learning a little theory after the fact, after learning to play by ear I mean - well, the theory didn't help to play, but it did help me to understand what I had been doing. And then it helped me go and do more.


These days.
Most of the time I don't think about the chords and the structures of the chord relationships. But it can be really helpful if I am accompanying others, especially in unfamiliar tunes. It let's you say things like, "You go ahead and sing it and I'll play along".