I am really happy with my OM-03 regarding its tone and balance. I really love the strong full sound of the treble strings.
What I feel could be improved is the crispness of the bass strings. You know, that ringing clear sustain. I get that for about two days with brand new strings and then it's gone. Fingerpicked I am happier with it, but flatpicked I really feel that the bass strings aren't lively and crisp enough.
I changed the saddle and pins to bone with that sound in mind.
I recorded a bit of me just doodling away. The strings are Martin SP+ 80/20 about 2 weeks old. (not too old for coated strings) The pick is made of pretty hard tortex.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=792379
Am imagining things? Do you think I could change something to get that crispness I am searching for?
I know the guitar sounds fine, that doesn't mean that it sounds exactly like I would like.
I would appreciate any comments or help.
If you aren't already using mediums, make that change and you will hear a noticable difference. You can also go with bluegrass strings, a combo of EBG lights and DAE mediums if you want to keep the higher strings light. You may also consider a set of uncoated strings. Owning both rw and hogtop OM's, I have tried several strings and the best sounding are the D'Addario EJ17's. My flat pick is just a Fender Heavy.
You should try Phos. Bronze strings. 80/20s sound rounder and fuller in the bass while PB have that modern scooped sound with an emphasis in the treble, IMO. I personally think mediums might be going in the opposite direction from the sound you're looking for, they always gave a constipated sound on my OM's.
Sounds ok to me, but I would also recommend trying mediums. BTW how old is your OM, mine was a little tight in the bass when new but it has opened up quite a bit now.
I think these are all good suggestions... the guitar sounds good to me know but LV19 is right in saying that the bottom end will fill out alittle with playing if it is a new guitar....it certainly did with my OM-MT. And finding the right string is certainly important...and just cause you like a brand of strings on your last guitar doen't mean they are the ones for a new axe...experimentation is good...
FYI I like Elixir nano light pb's....but you have to give them a week to sound their best.
:beer
Blue
Quote from: Blue in VT on January 09, 2008, 02:45:21 PM
I think these are all good suggestions... the guitar sounds good to me know but LV19 is right in saying that the bottom end will fill out alittle with playing if it is a new guitar....it certainly did with my OM-MT. And finding the right string is certainly important...and just cause you like a brand of strings on your last guitar doen't mean they are the ones for a new axe...experimentation is good...
FYI I like Elixir nano light pb's....but you have to give them a week to sound their best.
:beer
Blue
I have even gone back to a string I did not like and found success. The guitars and our ears change over time.
In addition to different strings you might want to consider experimenting with other picks and altering your right hand position which can really have an effect on the tone.
I'm a big fan of Martin strings... EXCEPT the SP+. I think they lack life right out of the box. I have found that D'Addarios work best on my OM 03 with bone saddle and ebony pins. Very articulate, crisp and clear sound on all strings.
I use a blended set with Mediums on the high 3 strings, and lights on the D, A, and low E. Great for fingerstyle.
RB
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I kind of thought about most of them.
I'm not sure if I made myself clear. I don't mean the general "eq" of the guitar. I'm talking about that slightly muted character. Almost like your finger isn't pressing down hard enough or is right on the fret.
The recording is actually clearer than I hear it while playing but it is still there. I don't know if you can hear it. Kind of like the dull thump some people like for blues guitars.
So ok, we've got the string factor.
Then the pick/position (I'm in control of that. I have experimented quite a bit and vary them often as I see fit)
Do you think the mahogany construction has anything to do with it?
Can it just be her individual voice?
You might try Adamas strings. They work well for low end clarity, with some guitars. Not a popular brand, but worth a try. I like them on my spruce/mahog dread.
Quote from: gouzos on January 09, 2008, 07:46:35 PM
Can it just be her individual voice?
Do you have any thing to compare it to? I mean have you played other Larrivee's or guitars that do have the sound you want? I'm betting this idea of crispness comes from somewhere; like other guitars you've played or listening to other players(live or recorded).
You also may want to try something like a 1.0 Dunlop ultex pick, those have a brighter attack.
Quote from: gouzos on January 09, 2008, 07:46:35 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions.
I kind of thought about most of them.
I'm not sure if I made myself clear. I don't mean the general "eq" of the guitar. I'm talking about that slightly muted character. Almost like your finger isn't pressing down hard enough or is right on the fret.
The recording is actually clearer than I hear it while playing but it is still there. I don't know if you can hear it. Kind of like the dull thump some people like for blues guitars.
So ok, we've got the string factor.
Then the pick/position (I'm in control of that. I have experimented quite a bit and vary them often as I see fit)
Do you think the mahogany construction has anything to do with it?
Can it just be her individual voice?
I'm also curious about how old the guitar is or how much playing time is has. The tone will fill out in its first several months. I've heard some new ones that sounded rather lifeless or two dimensional if that makes sense. A saddle that isn't perfectly flat on the bottom can affect the tone like that too.
As mentioned, changing strings is certainly worth a shot.
Your comment about a dull thud sound makes me wonder if rosewood might be what your ears prefer. The direct woody tone of mahogany sounds dull to some people. More and more lately I appreciate good mahogany tone. It can be very deep and clear and not muddy at all.
Did you happen to play the same model in rosewood when you bought your OM-03?
No, Larrivee4me, the rosewood model wasn't available unfortunately.
My parlor, jeremy3220, for example is not that way. Also some recordings that I like to listen to. Those of course might be due to recording with brand new strings.
I might record something side by side parlor-om to try and display the difference. I know I'm going on about this, but I'm not even sure I made my point regarding the actual sound. As someone pointed out "the guitar sounds fine". Describing tone is always so hard.
The guitar is about a year old with normal playing time. I know it will continue to open up for years, but isn't exactly "new" either.
And besides, I'm not talking about the actual tone, more the clarity and sustain of the bass strings.
Quote from: gouzos on January 10, 2008, 03:26:29 AM
My parlor, jeremy3220, for example is not that way. Also some recordings that I like to listen to. Those of course might be due to recording with brand new strings.
And besides, I'm not talking about the actual tone, more the clarity and sustain of the bass strings.
What recordings? It may help if we know what sound you want. Also keep in mind that when you hear a recording you are hearing what it sounds like from the front of the guitar which is one reason why your recording sounds clearer to you.
BTW, when I said "PB have that modern scooped sound with an emphasis in the treble" I meant that the treble emphasis is on the wound bass strings not that they increase the treble of the guitar as a whole.
Ok, here's a wild theory: It may have something to do with the model. OM's having a smaller air chamber than dreads emphasizes the low mid's, especially Larrivee's. Also Larrivee's have somewhat heavy bracing and while they seem to be voiced to have good balance and direct sound, they still have that extra bracing that has to be moved. This results in a thick heavy weighted sound. All this comes more apparent when pushed with a flatpick. What you're used to hearing flatpicking on is pre war style Martin dreads which have lighter bracing and a much larger body chamber. This gives you low end bass without the sustaining low-mids of Larrivee OM's and the lighter bracing and bigger body makes the bass strings sound crisper because that thick tone isn't attached to it but the overall tone of the guitar sounds big and full because of the ample bass. So when flatpicking those type dreads you get a woody snapping airy type sound on the bass strings where as your Larrivee you get a thick heavy attack. Have you played any decent dreads ,even a Larrivee dread would be a move in the direction I was talking about.
Here's exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLgXgVRqjk
I thought of something else. If you have metal buttons try taking them off and see how that sounds. I'm serious, lighter buttons sound better on my OM-03MT. It gives an airy snappier sound. It makes so much difference I couldn't live with the new Gotohs(metal buttons) I bought for it.
Quote from: rbpicker on January 09, 2008, 06:32:28 PM
I use a blended set with Mediums on the high 3 strings, and lights on the D, A, and low E. Great for fingerstyle.
:? Isn't that the opposite of a "bluegrass" set which, IIRC, has EAD (bass) mediums and GBE (treble) lights? Or do IRW?
And, more to the original poster's point, I notice that the low E on my OM03 sounds kinda dead, and it's a new set.
The first thing to do when you don't like the sound of your guitar? Change your strings. Any decent brand will do and it will sound better.
Yes Walt33, it is exactly opposite the bluegrass concept. They work great for fingerpicking and fingerstyle. Give it a try sometime, I think you may like it.
I first learned about this combination over on the Martin forum... a few serious fingerstylists over there actually had sets made up like this.
RB
How good do you want a $700 guitar to sound?
Forget about strings etc. Fork out another 2 grand and see what you can get.
Quote from: rbpicker on January 11, 2008, 06:38:05 PM
Yes Walt33, it is exactly opposite the bluegrass concept. They work great for fingerpicking and fingerstyle. Give it a try sometime, I think you may like it.
The "bluegrass strings" idea always sounded a little counterintuitive to me; the thick basses would drown out the light trebles, but I guess that would give a rhythm player some extra "thump." Switching that idea around would accentuate the trebles (melody) and put the bass accompaniment in the background. Guess that's why some of us have more than one guitar! I'll give both a try. Thanks! (And it'll be a cheap experiment: two sets, no strings go to waste.)
Well, the examples are too many to list, but recently I heard this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFuL6_G-2bA&eurl=http://www.candyrat.com/guitars/StonebridgeModelOMS32SMSN26396/ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFuL6_G-2bA&eurl=http://www.candyrat.com/guitars/StonebridgeModelOMS32SMSN26396/)
which has that crispness I'm talking about.
Is that just fresh strings???
well that's fingerpicked not flatpicked but I'd be willing to bet that guitar has lighter bracing than a Larrivee OM. I honestly think it's your guitar, my OM-03MT is pretty dull for flatpicking on the bass strings. I can hear the thick chunky sound caused by having to move all that wood.
Like I said, what do you expect from a $700 guitar? That Stonebridge in the youtube video sells for two grand.
http://candyrat.com/guitars/StonebridgeModelOMS32SMSN26396/
Sorry, bearsville0 but I can't agree with you at all.
I can accept that it's part of the Larrivee sound or that it's just the sound of my guitar.
I can't accept that an $800 meticulously crafted all-wood guitar is not good enough.
Besides, actually the Stonebridge would sell for about the same street price. The slight difference would probably be just for the extra bling.
Also, there are a number of Larrivee examples I could give you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unAMoGMP88M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unAMoGMP88M) is also what I'm talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm53vOTbAVY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm53vOTbAVY&feature=related) is obviously VERY new strings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJylLKe9ng0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJylLKe9ng0) has a nice sound, but what I consider very typical of a dread
Justin King, underneath all that tapping, slapping and harmonics has a very nice crisp sound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et9Dl3ouFk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Et9Dl3ouFk) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xdGAhQ6TM&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xdGAhQ6TM&feature=related) both have a nice tone; more like what I actually get from my guitar
I should also mention my own parlor.
So no, it is not that you can't get a sound like what I'm talking about out of a Larrivee.
I have the same "complaint" about my L-03 walnut. The bass e-string is not as lively as the other strings except when it is brand new, It quickly turns to a muted sound after a week. I had the local luthier look at it (he's an excellent concert classical guitar builder and makes first rate steel string guitars for many well-known players) and he took off a little from the braces to open up the bass which did help but you can only do so much.
Quote from: bearsville0 on January 19, 2008, 07:57:53 PM
I have the same "complaint" about my L-03 walnut. The bass e-string is not as lively as the other strings except when it is brand new, It quickly turns to a muted sound after a week.
Do you use PB strings? even with bluegrass guage, when I use PB's on the OM-03 my low E disappears.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on January 19, 2008, 08:41:33 PM
Do you use PB strings? even with bluegrass guage, when I use PB's on the OM-03 my low E disappears.
Right now I have Clapton's choice lights on (PBs). Before that I had Pearse Silks (also PBs) and the same dulling after a few days despite sounding perfect at first.
I'll try anything you recommend next.
If you're looking for crisper clear sound, ditch the coated strings! :thumb
Quote from: bearsville0 on January 19, 2008, 10:05:07 PM
Right now I have Clapton's choice lights on (PBs). Before that I had Pearse Silks (also PBs) and the same dulling after a few days despite sounding perfect at first.
I'll try anything you recommend next.
I can't promise they will stay 'bright' but the low E shouldn't sound muted, I think you should try some regular Martin 80/20's or the Martin SP 80/20's. 80/20's have always sounded more bassy to me and if you prefer lights the Martin's have a .054 low E as opposed to the .053 alot of manufactures' use.
Quote from: jeremy3220 on January 20, 2008, 01:11:17 AM
I can't promise they will stay 'bright' but the low E shouldn't sound muted, I think you should try some regular Martin 80/20's or the Martin SP 80/20's. 80/20's have always sounded more bassy to me and if you prefer lights the Martin's have a .054 low E as opposed to the .053 alot of manufactures' use.
Thanks, the next set I have ready to go is the Martin regulars "custom lights" although the e string is only .052. I'm going to get a bunch of just e-strings .054 and change them out every week
I had really reconciled myself to thinking that is just one weak point for the guitar that I can live with till I upgrade by a K or so. I'm not thrilled with changing the strings every week.
BTW, one of my favorite guitar sounds is the Guild dread John Renbourn used to play. Love that floating bass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beG3WJj6iZc
cheers
Quote from: bearsville0 on January 20, 2008, 07:25:16 AM
BTW, one of my favorite guitar sounds is the Guild dread John Renbourn used to play. Love that floating bass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beG3WJj6iZc
WOW - cool stuff.
cheers
I just got a bone saddle from http://larriveewearables.com and that livened up my OM-03... I thought it was find before but sounds fulller and has more dynamic range or depth or something now. Mostly it brings out the treble a little more even on the bass strings if that makes sense.
If you don't already have a bone saddle you might want to try one. They are a cheap and easy improvements that seems to make a big difference in tone, at least to my ears.
I have an OM-03 and I find it very crisp. I have been using D'addario EXP's since it was new, either bluegrass or mediums and they both seem to sound good for the whole life of the string 3-4 months. It is KOA so it might be a different than a hog.
I was wondering though if you had an undersaddle transducer, maybe something is seated properly.
If you have not put in a bone saddle, I agree with others who suggested it, mine came with one and upgraded pins.
Quote from: knowspicker on February 05, 2008, 04:29:12 PM
I just got a bone saddle from http://larriveewearables.com and that livened up my OM-03... I thought it was find before but sounds fulller and has more dynamic range or depth or something now. Mostly it brings out the treble a little more even on the bass strings if that makes sense.
Yes it does, it's strange sometimes to hear guitar players talk about EQ/balance/etc. They often aren't able to differentiate between the EQ of the guitar and the loudness of each string, as if the low strings only produce low frequencies. You are certainly right in that it's possible to increase the treble produced from the 'bass' strings.
I think just trying out a couple different sets of strings will fix what you hear. If not, check out the saddle as suggest to be sure it is fitted and flat properly. If none of that isn't doing it, then I think you should get your hands on a rosewood and check it out. I love my rw OM.
Quote from: bluesman67 on February 06, 2008, 01:53:23 PM
I think just trying out a couple different sets of strings will fix what you hear. If not, check out the saddle as suggest to be sure it is fitted and flat properly. If none of that isn't doing it, then I think you should get your hands on a rosewood and check it out. I love my rw OM.
It's funny, just lately my rosewood OM has started sounding too bright to me. I may try the D'Addarios, which I've never used.
Quote from: Tycho on February 06, 2008, 04:25:46 PM
It's funny, just lately my rosewood OM has started sounding too bright to me. I may try the D'Addarios, which I've never used.
You might want to check your humidity level. For me dryer usually equals brighter.
I just joined this thread, and I think I understand what gouzos is talking about. And switching to rosewood isn't the answer. I have an OM-03R, about ten months old, played about 8 hours per week, so it's reasonably broken in. It sounds like we have the same concern.
The comparison I draw is between C played on the A string, third fret, and G played on the low E, same fret. The C sounds just fine, full with nice sustain. The G at the same fret just drops off dramatically. Now, the open E also sounds just fine, so I'm not convinced it is either the string or the saddle/nut. But I'll probably try both eventually.
Asking a luthier to shave braces makes me nervous, but maybe that's the way to go?
John
After revisting this thread I'm changing my vote to strings. I listened to the clips and the most prominent feature I hear in most of them is the strings and not much body, one or two of them thats about all you can hear. Alot of that is due to using a video camera instead of actual audio recording equipment. The reason the parlor doesn't sound like your other guitar is because it just doesn't produce those frequencies. So my suggestion is to just get strings that are really bright for a lond time - elixers or something.
Quote from: JohnT on February 08, 2008, 05:00:58 PM
The comparison I draw is between C played on the A string, third fret, and G played on the low E, same fret. The C sounds just fine, full with nice sustain. The G at the same fret just drops off dramatically. Now, the open E also sounds just fine, so I'm not convinced it is either the string or the saddle/nut. But I'll probably try both eventually.
could be the fret(s) not seated as well as it could.