Just found out from the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum that Costco is now selling D-28's - visited them on line and its true -- whats next Walmart ?
wonder if Costco is now a official authorized Martin dealer, if not, no matter how cheap they are it will be worthless without a factory warranty which is only valid if guitar is sold through a authorized dealer. I also wonder if they can be haggled to the 40% off msrp which most credible Martin dealers will give?
:yak:
Costco also sells Taylors. Their prices are prety good. They had a few Gibsons some time ago. My preference is to always try to buy locally first, small online dealers second, and "other" as a third option. I'd rather buy a Martin from Costco than Musician's Friend. Costco offers a 100% refund on any purchase if you are not satisfied for any reason. Unlike Walmart they are a class organization.
I'm sorry but this just put Martin right up there with Yamaha. Mass produced and sold at Costco. There is just something really wrong with this picture, IMHO. :yak:
With GC/Musicians feinds moving to there own brands in the 200 to 700 dollar range and the burning of past small dealers don't be suprised.The majors are going to have to do something too stay alive. :whistling:
Quote from: Steve on September 07, 2007, 07:38:00 PM
I'm sorry but this just put Martin right up there with Yamaha. Mass produced and sold at Costco. There is just something really wrong with this picture, IMHO. :yak:
I think it could be argued that Martins have been mass produced for decades. I also think Costco has a good reputation compared to a competitor of theirs. There's also a lot of data to show the people often say one thing and do another (a flock heading to the cheapest price).
I guess I'll be the Archie Bunker of the bunch and just say that it seems completely "unAmerican" to me to sell guitars at Costco/WalMart/Target or anywhere else like that. What's next...guitars at Home Depot?
The first thing that I don't like is that ALL of these big box stores are run by corporate THUGS who are only interested in money, money, and more money. They don't care about anything but the bottom line: money. They'll sell whatever the law allows simply to make a little bit more. It sickens me.
There is nothing wrong with ambition and wanting to be successful, but when is enough actually enough with these folks? The answer is simple: never. They won't stop until they've put every small dealer of EVERYTHING out of business. They not only want to put the hardware stores out of business, but the grocery stores, shoe stores, clothings stores, and now guitar shops.
It may be convenient to get everything in one place, but it's robbed us of something as a culture to move toward this stuff. I like to listen to my grandmother talk about the old drug stores, grocery stores, etc. of yesteryear. You got to know the butcher, the pharmacist, etc. personally. Now it's just one trip down to the soulless WalMart to get everything all at once. And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay. But hey, at least there's some old guy at the door being paid to be nice to you and pretend like he cares that you stopped in.
We've lost something as a culture in all of this. Something that was important, but it's all but gone now. I hate it and try my best to not be a part of it all.
Screw Martin and Taylor for putting their guitars in these stores and for feeding the greed machine that they have become a part of. They're as bad as the guys running these places. All they care about anymore is money as well. Once upon a time a guy named Martin built gutiars because he probably loved music and wanted to build fine instruments. I'm sure he wanted to make a living as well, which there's nothing wrong with, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what he had in mind.
:yak:
Amen, Creature!!!!
:+1:
I'll second the Amen!!!
Here's the problem: Creatures preaching to the choir. We all realize the benefit of a quality instrument at a reasonable price. How do we get others to see it?
To the uninitiated, running through Walmart/Costco/etc and seeing a "name brand" like Martin or Taylor while little Bobby wants to learn to play - well you can't go wrong with a "name brand" can you? So, Bobby gets a bottom of the line guitar and there is no luthier available for a proper set up (or to even identify numerous other issues) and he loses interest inside a month because it is too hard to press the strings down.
I'm not saying you can't mass produce a decent guitar. But the night stock clerk would probably grab a crescent wrench if he heard the Martin had a loose nut! They wouldn't know a separated bridge from a cracked sound board. A decent guitar shop serves a plethora of services not even considered by soccer mom who loves Bobby.
But, we have a saying in my shop. You get cheap, quality, and good, but only two.
good and cheap = no quality
cheap quality = no good
good quality = not cheap
I don't want to draw a direct corelation to price paid and quality received. But, there is no way your going to Walmart for a guitar and end up with much of anything unless you take it somewhere else for a set up and inspection. I really feel bad for the local guys. They are eeking a living out and working their fannies off.
I don't think Costco is an authorized dealer, they just got some inventory. This is just a guess, but I would be surprised if Martin, Taylor or Gibson were thinking about Costco as part of their core strategy. It's possible that selling a bit of inventory to Costco on a one-time basis is seen as a quick way to improve cash flow or reduce overstock or prevent temporary layoffs. Just guessing.
If I was an authorized Martin dealer, I would be annoyed though.
I agree, don't like to see Martin's at Costco. But if the warranty card is in the case, you should be covered. Surprised they are actually selling D28's. I would have thought the lower line laminates. Martins are certainly mass produced but they do put out some very nice guitars. My daughter's OOO28-EC is a beautiful guitar, I will be doing a side by side comparison with my Larrivee Custom OMV-03 shortly. I want the same strings on each guitar, so this may take a few weeks or so. Both guitars were probably produced about the same time. The Martin was picked up from factory in April, and Dave (at Guitar Adoptions) invoiced the OMV in May. I am still waiting to hear on the serial number request from Brian at Larrivee. Sorry for the digression.
:arrow
Creature wrote:
"And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay."
Creature, I agreed with you until you said the above. Would you prefer we all look like the salesmen at Sears? I smell a contradiction here in your desire to preserve the little guys.
Quote from: bearsville0 on September 08, 2007, 07:30:37 AM
Creature wrote:
"...get checked out by some kid"
"Do you want your eggs in the bag with the guitar, dude?"
The Martin warranty is only valid if you purchase the guitar from an authorized Martin dealer with a shop physically located in the US or Canada.
Costco is not an authorized dealer, so the warranty will not be valid. The prices are also not great - you can do way better from the same guys we buy our Larrivees from.
Guitars bought off ebay (new) are not covered by the warranty either, nor are any guitars bought new from a store here in the UK! :doh
Quote from: the creature on September 07, 2007, 09:12:50 PM
The first thing that I don't like is that ALL of these big box stores are run by corporate THUGS who are only interested in money, money, and more money. They don't care about anything but the bottom line: money. They'll sell whatever the law allows simply to make a little bit more. It sickens me.
There are ethical and unethical players big and small and big and little players are quick to do the same selling what the law allows. It is foolish to think that money is not the ultimate goal whether the organization is big or small .in most economies.
In the case of Martin and Taylor my two local outlets are Guitar Center and a fancy place that has no time of day for you if you're not buying $3000-$20,000 guitars and neither will even put fresh strings on a D-28 or $1000+ guitars. Maybe the Costco being built in the area will mean better service from these other merchants and if not it will probably mean a buyer of a D-28 saves $100 and doesn't have to deal with jerks.
There is probably no vote better than or more effective than voting with your wallet.
Quote from: thistle on September 08, 2007, 08:19:08 AM
The Martin warranty is only valid if you purchase the guitar from an authorized Martin dealer with a shop physically located in the US or Canada.
Costco is not an authorized dealer, so the warranty will not be valid.....
If you go to the COstco site and look at the Shipping and Terms info on the page for say ..the MArtin D-28 they do explicitly state
QuoteThis item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise.
So at least they are upfront about that.
Quote from: the creature on September 07, 2007, 09:12:50 PM
We've lost something as a culture in all of this. Something that was important, but it's all but gone now. I hate it and try my best to not be a part of it all.
We did the math and we're well ahead with our saving money, keeping cars longer, avoiding debt and the premium we paid for our home. We can walk or ride a bike for most all of our needs and our kids will have same distance for k-12. We're even crawling distance from a brewery as we like to joke. Even though we're in a broader metro area of 500,000 people most all of life is in a 6 mile circle of home. We are not high earners, and it did not kill us to save the premium for the home over 6-7 years and the life that you might think of as old fashioned is here and great and it pays. Our neighborhood goes up in value while the rest of the area and nation have been hurting. Our dumb a$$ friends and relatives sit in cars for a total of a few days a year so they can have a stupid status car that will be junk and a plastic covered cheap box in a former corn field to live in.
We weighed the cost of cutting out thousands of miles in a car a year and the associated hours wasted and have no regrets. My wife can bike to work now and still take less time than the former drive and 5 hours (min.) a week in a car eliminated translates directly to parenting, cooking, quality of life and even playing guitar. We're not alone in being not so high earners in a higher level neighborhood and it it is about status those we know who put it in what they drive and other life style choices seem to be the fools.
These old fashioned businesses are not gone either. My biggest customer is a small chain of grocery stores bucking the big boys via doing everything well including compensating their employees. My neighborhood hardware store is not a chain, nor are the many little business in my down town.
When i was a kid if you wanted a guitar you could afford - you ended up with a harmony and maybe someday you could afford a semi pro instrument - but back then if you had a Martin D-28 etc- you were for the most part making your living or at least playing out 1-2 nights a week making some bread- you also didn't have GAS - that was something for some Rich A--hole who had more money than Brains---- Now a days if you play the guitar you might start in the middle , but you usually ( if you stick with it ) end up with a couple of so called high ends with maybe a beater somewhere in the middle ( and not be Pro- or play out ) -- we have more than we did back then , and these higher end guitars are more in reach to guitarists -- i have guitars that most of the pros back then couldn't afford ( I'm not talking about some mega Rock stars here )--
I'm not against Walmart or Costco - just wounded my pride I guess about the status of going to a real Mom and Pop or top end music store and having that once in a life time feeling of a special event in my life -- ordering it from Costco - just feels like getting your hamburgers at McDonald's .
Quote from: ElJefe on September 08, 2007, 08:10:29 AM
"Do you want your eggs in the bag with the guitar, dude?"
ElJefe - I'm still chuckling on the one...
:roll
jimmy
"The first thing that I don't like is that ALL of these big box stores are run by corporate THUGS who are only interested in money, money, and more money. They don't care about anything but the bottom line: money. They'll sell whatever the law allows simply to make a little bit more. It sickens me. "
Yep. Corporate greed is a religion and it is often defended by the very people it preys on. Fortunatly there is some movement toward alternatives in recent times.
Costco may be unique in that they are a very ethical corporation that lives their values. Their CEO earns $250,000/year compared to the hundreds of millions in compensation for their competitors top management. Their average warehouse worker earns close to $40,000/year and has full pension and insurance benefits. They have a highly motivated, loyal work force. They are very mindfull of small local business when considering new sites.
Comsumers vote with their wallets and what they are telling vendors is that low price is THE value. Low price is their motto of the biggest of them. When you buy from Musicians Fiend the message to the local music store that you don't value their presence in your community.
I do agree that it is just weird to think about buying a quality instrument from a wholesale store. I include Guitar Center and Sam Ash in that catagory.
Well as a Martin dealer I gata say that just stinks! I am not that concerned with losing sales as with the detraction of the brand name all the guitar going out with out a proper setup.
Jim Holler
So, if they aren't getting their inventory from Martin, then where? Quite often these "grey market" dealers have a connection with a major dealer to flow inventory out the back door and into their stock. With the number of Costco stores about, this would have to be a sizable deal.
Quote from: ronmac on September 08, 2007, 02:39:50 PM
So, if they aren't getting their inventory from Martin, then where?
I was wondering the same thing. How can you possibly supply a meaningful number of guitars to a chain that size and not be an authorized dealer? Would Martin sell to Costco and
not consider them to be an authorized dealer? If they are sourced on the grey market, who would be large enough to supply the number of instruments required just to "fill the pipeline"?
Enquiring minds want to know...
jimmy
I think this or a very similar topic was addressed on The Martin Forum a few months ago and the general impression wqs that the guitars sold by Costco would not be covered under warranty because Costco was not an official Martin dealer. I don't recall the entire thread, but I believe it was explained where Costco was getting these guitars. Some Taylors might have also been in the Costco deal. Again, I can't recall all the details, but this was talked about.
Quote from: TrinityGuitars on September 08, 2007, 02:24:32 PM
Well as a Martin dealer I gata say that just stinks! I am not that concerned with losing sales as with the detraction of the brand name all the guitar going out with out a proper setup.
Jim Holler
The dealers in my metro area (Madison, WI) won't even put fresh strings on a $1600 or $3200 guitar, and the HD-28 I got used had terrible setup from a dealer in the next largest metro area, and it was much of why it's naive owner was getting a custom guitar. One of the dealers blatantly said that the Martins that do not sound well help them sell a lot more Taylors and boutique brands. That was with a Taylor briefly in my arms and my 3rd trip in the shop to see if they put fresh strings on the HD-28 as promised. Thus, if there is a level of poor dealer support I can see how it happens, and Maybe Martin is selling or taking care of excess capacity with these sales.
Good merchants usually survive. My area has shops that compete with Guitar Center or area computer stores that compete with the Apple Store or Trek Bike store would be good examples.
I'm not sure what more I can do to stop lemming or mass behavior. I already live anti-sprawl, got my nice guitars from locally owned merchants and generally support my local economy with special empathy because I am a small business owner. OTOH I'm not feeling bad going into the Guitar Center close to my house when the other close store has little time for people not taking lessons from them or buying $3500-25000 guitars.
Wow,
I went to the Costco site and was surprised to see as another member posted they are not covered by the warranty. Hard to believe Martin would sell to them. The discount on a D-28 is only 28%. All of my local dealers would beat that. I will forward an email to one of the reps I have had contact with to express concern over their less than customer focused approach with this move.
:angry: :mad: :angry:
Quote from: rakalm on September 09, 2007, 08:04:23 AM
Wow,
I went to the Costco site and was surprised to see as another member posted they are not covered by the warranty. Hard to believe Martin would sell to them. The discount on a D-28 is only 28%. All of my local dealers would beat that. I will forward an email to one of the reps I have had contact with to express concern over their less than customer focused approach with this move.
:angry: :mad: :angry:
I have no ideas about the dealers by you, but as far as "less than customer focused approach" goes it could be the opposite when the new Costco opens by me. I say that because Guitar Center in my area does little service to the brand with no setup, typically beat up stock and dead strings to go along with it and the other dealer does not disguise their preference to sell Taylor, Collings, Santa Cruz, Huss & Dalton and the R. Taylor Taylors. It means one really wanting a Martin can probably get one not beat up at take to one of two local luthiers for a setup if needed.
Of course choice one for me would be my preferred dealer selling Martin.
Also, remember that Costco has probably one of the best return policy in the business. You can pretty much bring back anything at anytime. Some people abuse this policy, but it does give you a piece of mind.
I hear ya, I hear ya, but I have also stepped in and defended big box stores and the luthiers who sell through them. It's free enterpise folks. I don't begrudge Martin seeking to make more money and make guitars more accessable. Heck if you asked my 80 year old mother where a guitar shop was, she would have to stop and think, but she knows right where Costco is, and she has been exposed to guitars for more than 40 years (through me)
She would buy a guitar for a grandkid if she could use her Costco card which gives her airline miles.
And luthers could make a point to take their cards to their local Costco for the sales people to give to the buyers for a set up, right?
And no, I'm not gonna order from Costco when I want a guitar, I am confident enought to buy privately, and have good personal relationships with great dealers, but then, that confidence is key. Some folks feel safer at familiar Costco...and it is a great company.
Quote from: the creature on September 07, 2007, 09:12:50 PM
I guess I'll be the Archie Bunker of the bunch and just say that it seems completely "unAmerican" to me to sell guitars at Costco/WalMart/Target or anywhere else like that. What's next...guitars at Home Depot?
The first thing that I don't like is that ALL of these big box stores are run by corporate THUGS who are only interested in money, money, and more money. They don't care about anything but the bottom line: money. They'll sell whatever the law allows simply to make a little bit more. It sickens me.
There is nothing wrong with ambition and wanting to be successful, but when is enough actually enough with these folks? The answer is simple: never. They won't stop until they've put every small dealer of EVERYTHING out of business. They not only want to put the hardware stores out of business, but the grocery stores, shoe stores, clothings stores, and now guitar shops.
It may be convenient to get everything in one place, but it's robbed us of something as a culture to move toward this stuff. I like to listen to my grandmother talk about the old drug stores, grocery stores, etc. of yesteryear. You got to know the butcher, the pharmacist, etc. personally. Now it's just one trip down to the soulless WalMart to get everything all at once. And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay. But hey, at least there's some old guy at the door being paid to be nice to you and pretend like he cares that you stopped in.
We've lost something as a culture in all of this. Something that was important, but it's all but gone now. I hate it and try my best to not be a part of it all.
Screw Martin and Taylor for putting their guitars in these stores and for feeding the greed machine that they have become a part of. They're as bad as the guys running these places. All they care about anymore is money as well. Once upon a time a guy named Martin built gutiars because he probably loved music and wanted to build fine instruments. I'm sure he wanted to make a living as well, which there's nothing wrong with, but I'm pretty sure this isn't what he had in mind.
:yak:
Yeah, and screw all of those Americans, young and old, who hold Costco stock in their retirement accounts. And while you're at it, screw those kids who have Costco stock in their college funds. For good measure, screw all of those untold millions of Americans who shop at Costco. Screw 'em all.
PS.....screw all of the Costco employees while you're at it...why should they be allowed to earn a living.
Quote from: bearsville0 on September 08, 2007, 07:30:37 AM
Creature wrote:
"And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay."
Creature, I agreed with you until you said the above. Would you prefer we all look like the salesmen at Sears? I smell a contradiction here in your desire to preserve the little guys.
I'm not necessarily concerned about people agreeing or disagreeing with me, but if you "smell a contradiction", then come on out with it.
Quote from: bearsville0 on September 08, 2007, 08:30:37 AM
"""Creature wrote:
i]"And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay."
Creature, I agreed with you until you said the above. Would you prefer we all look like the salesmen at Sears? I smell a contradiction here in your desire to preserve the little guys.
"I'm not necessarily concerned about people agreeing or disagreeing with me, but if you "smell a contradiction", then come on out with it."
Okay, it may not be a contradiction, but a derogatory comment about certain people and a certain language that I found offensive to my desire and preference for diversity.
Quote from: bearsville0 on September 11, 2007, 09:26:09 PM
Quote from: bearsville0 on September 08, 2007, 08:30:37 AM
"""Creature wrote:
i]"And on top of that you get to get checked out by some kid with tattoos on his neck and corks stuck in his ears, and you even have the option to use Spanish on the clever little machine that lets you swipe your ATM card to pay."
Creature, I agreed with you until you said the above. Would you prefer we all look like the salesmen at Sears? I smell a contradiction here in your desire to preserve the little guys.
"I'm not necessarily concerned about people agreeing or disagreeing with me, but if you "smell a contradiction", then come on out with it."
Okay, it may not be a contradiction, but a derogatory comment about certain people and a certain language that I found offensive to my desire and preference for diversity.
Well, thanks for taking back the contradiction accusation. As for you're taking offense to what I posted, I can't do much about that.
It's called Capitalism people. Get over it. Move to China if you cannot tolerate it. :wink:
Just kidding.
But that aside, Martin has done mail order and department stores for the longest time. Heck, they even took orders from the turn of the 20th century "Costcos" (such as Ditson, etc) and PUT THEIR NAME ON IT! Imagine buying a D35 with COSTO and CO on the headstock! That is how Martin did business for decades. This move is nostalgic, puts more quality guitar in the reach of persons less prone to guitar biz (and obsession as we are), and turns people on to good music who otherwise miht buy a POS.
I think we all can use the creature's motto - get over yourself. Enjoy the guitar, not the modus operendii by which it is acquired.
Quote from: LawDogStrgsAttach on September 11, 2007, 10:28:02 PM
...Martin has done mail order and department stores for the longest time. Heck, they even took orders from the turn of the 20th century "Costcos" (such as Ditson, etc) and PUT THEIR NAME ON IT! Imagine buying a D35 with COSTO and CO on the headstock! That is how Martin did business for decades.
It's funny the paradigm we sometimes see things through to form our opinions. There's something I did not know. I would love to have one of those old Ditson guitars.
According to Martin, they did not ship the guitars to Costco and are currently investigating the matter. I like Costco for certain items but I don't want to see Larrivee's there either (and don't think I will).
:guitar
QuoteIt's called Capitalism people. Get over it. Move to China if you cannot tolerate it.
Sorry, but capitalism is here in China, too. Just less regulated and more brutal than in the U.S. (FYI: I'm an American living in China)
Regarding Martin selling to COSTCO, its highly unlikely, IMHO. Most likely, COSTCO bought this inventory in a bankruptcy sale or from a Martin dealer who couldn't move his inventory for some reason (the guitar market, apparently, has slowed down a bit in some places). There's nothing a company like Martin can legally do about something like that. Once they've sold guitars to a store, they belong to that store and the store can sell them to whomever they want (including COSTCO). My guess is that you'll see these Martins get sold and then COSTCO will be out of the Martin business. If they had a regular supply you'd see them showing up in their stores as well, not just on-line. Its very common, BTW, for places like COSTCO to buy up inventory out of bankruptcy (or going-out-of-business or over-stock) or other wholesale market opportunities and get up-market brand name products at very low prices. They can then make a big noise about it, which brings customers in the door. Their challenge is then to keep the customers for other, less up-market, and better stocked inventory.
This, too, shall pass.
Quote from: the creature on September 11, 2007, 10:32:41 PM
No need to.....it's moving here! :laughin:
I am afraid you are right, prophet creature. :rolleye:
Quote from: bjstrings on September 12, 2007, 08:53:54 AM
Sorry, but capitalism is here in China, too. Just less regulated and more brutal than in the U.S. (FYI: I'm an American living in China)
Regarding Martin selling to COSTCO, its highly unlikely, IMHO. Most likely, COSTCO bought this inventory in a bankruptcy sale or from a Martin dealer who couldn't move his inventory for some reason (the guitar market, apparently, has slowed down a bit in some places). There's nothing a company like Martin can legally do about something like that. Once they've sold guitars to a store, they belong to that store and the store can sell them to whomever they want (including COSTCO). My guess is that you'll see these Martins get sold and then COSTCO will be out of the Martin business. If they had a regular supply you'd see them showing up in their stores as well, not just on-line. Its very common, BTW, for places like COSTCO to buy up inventory out of bankruptcy (or going-out-of-business or over-stock) or other wholesale market opportunities and get up-market brand name products at very low prices. They can then make a big noise about it, which brings customers in the door. Their challenge is then to keep the customers for other, less up-market, and better stocked inventory.
This, too, shall pass.
I did not even realize the fact of the bankruptcy sale, bj. hmmm...will be interesting to see how CFM handles it. But I still find the idea nostalgic given their history. I'd like an old Ditson, too!
my concern has little to do with capitalism, or getting over "it" or myself. It is the commoditizing (I may have just unwittingly invented this term) of guitars.
Once your Martin guitar or your Larrivee or (fill in the blank) becomes a commodity then it doesn't matter who made it or where or even if it has a warranty. It's disposable. Chuck it and buy a new one. So, I don't care what the politics or the religion or the race, color or creed of the clerk, shop owner or manager, but I think the mojo and more will suffer when you get a free D28 with every fill up at your gas station of first choice.
Quote. . . commoditizing . . .
Sorry. Economists use the term all the time. Still, the idea is the right one.
BTW: Here's what one of the Martin sales managers says:
"Those guitars are grey market, with no warranty and were not obtained from Martin."
I haven't read every entry in this thread, but are these Martins available only in U.S. Costco stores, or are they also available in Canada?
I wouldn't buy a Martin at a Costco, but, if the prices were attractive, I would refer to them when hagling with a REAL guitar store that I DO buy from. :arrow
Apparently, they're not available in ANY store. Only online.
Quote from: LawDogStrgsAttach on September 12, 2007, 09:42:59 AM
I am afraid you are right, prophet creature. :rolleye:
What are you afraid of ???
jimmy
I just want to say that every time I see this thread title, I misread it as "Costco is now selling Martinis".
Quote from: jimmy buffett on September 12, 2007, 08:50:56 PM
What are you afraid of ???
jimmy
What are you not afraid of? China is not exactly a utopia of freedom, ya know. IMO, we're feeding a dog that's chained up in the back yard, only for it one day to break loose and tear us to shreds.
Quote from: the creature on September 12, 2007, 09:32:15 PM
What are you not afraid of? China is not exactly a utopia of freedom, ya know. IMO, we're feeding a dog that's chained up in the back yard, only for it one day to break loose and tear us to shreds.
Exactly. Let us quit deluding ourselves.
I'm sorry; what does China have to do with COSTCO & Martins?
Quote from: Tycho on September 12, 2007, 09:03:22 PM
I just want to say that every time I see this thread title, I misread it as "Costco is now selling Martinis".
First time I saw this thread I thought it said
Castro is selling Martins. Makes just about as much sense.
Castro is selling Martinis?
QuoteCastro is selling Martinis?
Mojitos, surely!
i think i will just have some martinis and play my Larrivee
Quote from: Tycho on September 13, 2007, 10:16:36 AM
Mojitos, surely!
Don't mind if I do but don't call me surely.
Quote from: canoe65 on September 12, 2007, 12:53:51 PM
I haven't read every entry in this thread, but are these Martins available only in U.S. Costco stores, or are they also available in Canada?
I wouldn't buy a Martin at a Costco, but, if the prices were attractive, I would refer to them when hagling with a REAL guitar store that I DO buy from. :arrow
That's as bad or worse than the gray market merchant. Your authorized dealer has standards to meet that a gray market seller does not and you're using the mechanism the maker has for a fair playing field against the one who is plays fair.
they would be a fair deal if they were selling at a used price ( because of no warranty ) but their not-- Id stay away from these -- think your asking for a headache !
Quote from: imwjl on September 13, 2007, 10:34:44 PM
That's as bad or worse than the gray market merchant. Your authorized dealer has standards to meet that a gray market seller does not and you're using the mechanism the maker has for a fair playing field against the one who is plays fair.
I have to agree. Why use your leverage against a good local dealer who has invested his time and energies in learning his trade and building a local business. You put him in a tough spot and the next thing you know, he's not there when you need advise, selection, repairs or even a basic set of strings.
Now take a walk on down to your local Costco and ask him if he can help you out.
I don't know why anyone would want to put their local dealer in this position, but Canoe65, for a guy who has often written about the great trips you've made to The 12th Fret, it's curious that you don't value the very things that make them different from the Big Box Guys.
I don't mean to sound too harsh, but come on now...
jimmy
Costco is also selling the Guild GAD-50. :?
Quote from: Steve on September 07, 2007, 07:38:00 PM
I'm sorry but this just put Martin right up there with Yamaha. Mass produced and sold at Costco. There is just something really wrong with this picture, IMHO. :yak:
Martin doesn't have as many cool older models as Yamaha. Pthh
I don't know much about Martin or Costco, but as a retired ol' marketer,
It seems an amazing score for Costco that they just happened to bump into a batch of guitars that fit so magnificently into their existing guitar offerings and at the perfect price points. Not five boxcars of unwanted backpackers, but two versions of an iconic American guitar -- an unsullied 'top of the line dread' and a lesser version with onboard electronics. I've logged too many hours in meetings with people conjuring how to appeal to Cowgirlies grandmother, so call me cynical.
Secondly, How do you sell a large quantity of unused inventory without letting anyone in your industry know about it? When I had unwanted inventory, the easy route was to offer it to brother companies using the same thing. Wouldn't a big guitar retailer doing a 'one-time' inventory reduction attempt to unload that inventory to other guitar retailers? Or, even contact Martin, to see if they could help get it off their hands by putting it back in the pipe and available to other dealers? And maybe even lean on Martin for a little assistance in this because I'm such a big customer? If nothing else, the 'grapevine' in the guitar industry would have to be the deafest I've ever heard of! Again, call me cynical, I was not in the guitar biz, but BTDTGTS
This post was prepared without intending any offense whatsoever to individuals or organizations!! :-)
Im wondering what we would think if Costco started selling Larrivees - --
Quote from: Tony Burns on September 15, 2007, 08:13:45 PM
Im wondering what we would think if Costco started selling Larrivees - --
Not surprised. They've sold Gibsons, Taylors and Martins - Larrivee is next.
The "word" here is that Delores in Produce does the setups. :humour:
Quote from: ronmac on September 08, 2007, 02:39:50 PM
So, if they aren't getting their inventory from Martin, then where? Quite often these "grey market" dealers have a connection with a major dealer to flow inventory out the back door and into their stock. With the number of Costco stores about, this would have to be a sizable deal.
My guess is that they are coming from Sam Ash. One of the other brands Costco is selling is Carlo Robelli and that is a house brand of Sam Ash stores.
Jim
Missouri,
Does she adjust the nuts? :whistling:
I guess I'm in the minority here. It just doesn't bother me. Martins, Larrivees, whatever. I thought I already owned a mass produced commodity in a Larrivee and I still love it. Would a boutique guitar maker pumping out 10-20 guitars a year look at Larrivees that way?
Small dealers provide the added value of in depth industry knowledge, set-up, repair work, lessons, supplies, and every little guitar related gadget that you want to buy. Costco is never going to offer these things, except for a selection of supplies which you can buy at www.justaboutanywhere.com. Just because I can get legal contract templates online make a last will & testament, doesn't mean that I wouldn't want to pay $250/hr to an attorney to make sure all my bases are covered. I don't mean to suggest that a small guitar shop would charge you more, but that they would offer more value with other services and intangibles not offered at Costco.
"Does she adjust the nuts?"
Experience tells Dolores that once you're comfortable in the saddles, the nuts take care of themselves.
Cerainly, her melon display is the talk of the town! :whistling:
According to Martin Customer Service:
As you may be aware there are several Martin instruments displayed for sale on the Costco website. We want you to know that C. F. Martin & Co. has not authorized the sale of these instruments through Costco, nor do we condone the sale of these instruments by Costco, nor did we sell these instruments to Costco.
As stated on the Costco website, "Costco is not an 'authorized' dealer of the merchandise." As such there is no C. F. Martin & Co. warranty whatsoever on these instruments.
You beat me to it, Lynn.
I think part of the reason it bothers some folks to have Martins, Taylors, Gibsons, or Larrivees sold at "other" than guitar stores is that we tend to feel folks looking for guitars that are well-made will go somewhere where guitars are known and respected---not sold off of a pallet back in the warehouse or on the third level of the big rack back against the wall. I don't want to buy off of a pallet from George who knows nothing of music, aside from the radio. I want to buy from Stan or Georgia, who I can talk with about Larrivees and Gibsons and rosewood and maple and Black Diamond Strings and Johnny Cash, etc. :niceguitar:
Quote from: thistle on September 20, 2007, 01:40:35 PM
According to Martin Customer Service:
As you may be aware there are several Martin instruments displayed for sale on the Costco website. We want you to know that C. F. Martin & Co. has not authorized the sale of these instruments through Costco, nor do we condone the sale of these instruments by Costco, nor did we sell these instruments to Costco.
As stated on the Costco website, "Costco is not an 'authorized' dealer of the merchandise." As such there is no C. F. Martin & Co. warranty whatsoever on these instruments.
I see Martin has finally spoke up about this. Wonder how Costco is getting Martin inventory?
I also see Costco is now selling Taylor instruments. Has Taylor given their blessing to Costco or is this a 3rd party deal also? :?
Quote from: bjstrings on September 13, 2007, 12:35:58 AM
I'm sorry; what does China have to do with COSTCO & Martins?
Plenty, maybe.
If Costco becomes a major vendor for non-entry level instruments, then it is only a matter of time before the "off-shore" inventory starts. This is what I meant by the commoditization of guitars. As is the case with Walmart, Costco hammers their supplier for ever-lower prices until nearly all their store inventory is produced in under-developed countries at poverty-level wages.
Now, I might buy a guitar from Castro if we could haggle over a couple of martinis.
In that case, you're right. One of the characteristics of the China market is that differentiated goods (things that consumers buy by brand: like TV's or cell phones or computers) become commoditized (consumers don't care about brands because they are all the same, or at least thats the perception, and buy only by price). While I don't think that'll really happen with all guitars, it shows signs on the lower end of a tendency towards that (just my perception).
bjstrings,
"One of the characteristics of the China market is that differentiated goods..." are no longer differentiated. That's an interestiing and perceptive point. I wonder why this is true of Chinese production today but did not seem so true of Japanese production forty years ago. I'm no authority on the subject, but maybe design origin has something to do with this. If I recall correctly, Japan 'borrowed' design concepts that were integrated into Japanese products, i.e. a Nikon camera, Sony Trinitron, etc. These became 'differentiated' Japanese brands.
Today, I get the sense that China has become the workshop of the world. I know engineers who design products for Chinese manufacture wherein brand identification is irrelevant. I can't think of any obviously 'differentiated' Chinese brands ala, "Trinitron" the 1970's synonym for color TVs. They may be there, but, I can't name them.
Is this your experience or does it seem plausible?
Tx, Piscator
I don't have time for a long post, but here's a quick answer:
Chinese manufacturers understand economies of scale and like to produce large quantities. In addition, they are particularly bad at innovation. The result is that they can take a succesful product & copy it, then make as much as they can at a slightly lower price than everyone else. If you have lots of companies doing the same thing, you have products that aren't differentiated in design features but are in terms of price which, almost by definition, commoditizes the market.
************* THIS JUST IN **************
I was just down at Starbucks buying a $18 latte and noticed that they started selling Taylors! They've got them up on the wall behind the counter. There's a new model called the mocha-java-Bob Taylor-signature line. When you purchase it you get a FREE CASE packed with Starbucks beans enough to last you for a whole year. What a brilliant idea. What will they think of next?
:beer
Bjstrings, you make an excellent point regarding Chinese guitars. Some of the recently new imports are (according to The BlueRidge Forum), the same guitars with a different name on them. Also, Greg Rich, who has been in on the design of some imports said that one factory may make several brands of guitars. Thus, if Guitar Brand A's run for the day is finished, but there are some fretboards, bridges, etc. left-over, they are likely to be used on the Guitar Brand B production run. That's how he explained it, and the guy is typically very honest about the guitars, and "yes," some of the guitars are really nice. However, back to your point: There is a sameness in all these guitars.
This sounds pretty typical for many Chinese manufacturers. It doesn't mean there's anything dishonest going on or that they're trying to cheat anyone. But its certainely not a "craft shop".
Quote from: bjstrings on September 25, 2007, 06:57:04 PM
This sounds pretty typical for many Chinese manufacturers. It doesn't mean there's anything dishonest going on or that they're trying to cheat anyone. But its certainely not a "craft shop".
This reminds me of what folks used to say about the Japanese....good at copying, but no innovation.
Well, I'll take a Japanese car over an American car anyday...and that goes from luxery down to economy. They make better...more innovative....cars than we do. The Chinese manufacturing sector is in it's infancy. First they learn how to make things...next, they will learn how to desing things. They will dwarf the Japanese economy, and rival, if not surpass, ours. This will take time, but it is inevitible. So, buy FXI and enjoy the ride.
You're right that it looks similar to the situation 20 years ago with the Japanese, but its actually a bit different. Before Chinese industry can learn to innovate, the education system needs to change. The Chinese educational system is based on rote learning and thinking out of the box is actually punished, not encouraged. Innovation requires, by definition, approaching problems in new ways, not using conventional wisdom. Also, in China today, almost the entire system (educational, technical, economic, political) is based on obedience to authoriity and acceptance of approved ways of seeing things. This is the antithesis of the approaches needed for innovative thinking. In japan, there is great respect (but not blind obedience to) the past & to tradition. Nevertheless, it is an open society. China today, despite the vast changes of the last 25 or so years, is anything but.
Just for reference, I've lived in China for the last 15+ years and my job is involved with both the educational system and working with Chinese companies. I also teach a economics course every year at a well known (western run) research & teaching center for Chinese studies in Beijing.
Quote from: Walkerman on September 26, 2007, 09:31:19 AM
This reminds me of what folks used to say about the Japanese....good at copying, but no innovation.
Well, I'll take a Japanese car over an American car anyday...and that goes from luxery down to economy. They make better...more innovative....cars than we do.
Thats only your opinion, and you have the right to speak it. Think about it!
Quote from: Mr_LV19E on September 26, 2007, 10:09:01 AM
Thats only your opinion, and you have the right to speak it. Think about it!
Imports better than domestics?
It also seems to be the opinion of every mechanic that I've spoken to in recent years. And their kids all drive imports too. Given the volume of vehicles that they see, I have some respect for their opinion.
jimmy
Quote from: jimmy buffett on September 27, 2007, 09:35:24 AM
Imports better than domestics?
It also seems to be the opinion of every mechanic that I've spoken to in recent years. And their kids all drive imports too. Given the volume of vehicles that they see, I have some respect for their opinion.
jimmy
I only buy American made vehicles and have not heard any mechanics say that, oh wait, thats because I never had to take my vehicle to a mechanic.
I believe Chairman Mau said something to the effect that "all power emanates from the barrel of a gun" I gather that China is a repressive country that commands obedience with prisons and AK47s.
Here is America we are innovative thinkers, so we use Tasers.
I drive an American truck.
Piscator
QuoteThe Chinese educational system is based on rote learning and thinking out of the box is actually punished, not encouraged. Innovation requires, by definition, approaching problems in new ways, not using conventional wisdom
Well said Mike... i have been trying to articulate this for a while now... i just finished a project with some of the work done in Bejing, some in LA... (a new US national Honda Accord commerical) with the animation coming from artists in Bejing.... and it rings true.... inovation is a hard comodity to find in China, excelent workmanship is easier to find....
As you know i lived in Shanghai for a few years (2000-> 2002), and still do some bizness with the artists there...
But today i am writing this from the balcony beside the ocean in Ibiza, recovering from the closing night at Pascha with Pete Tong DJ'n untill dawn..... thumpa-thumpa-thumpa..... tonight is closing night at Amnisia..... wish me strength!
;-)
d.
Quote from: Mr_LV19E on September 27, 2007, 10:41:14 AM
I only buy American made vehicles and have not heard any mechanics say that, oh wait, thats because I never had to take my vehicle to a mechanic.
Lucky you! The last domestic vehicle I purchased was a Chevy Blazer that was returned to the dealer 7 times in the first 3,000 miles. Between recalls, faulty wiring, and starter problems.
Let's see, that was drive it for a week, make a trip to the dealer, drive it for a week, make a trip to the dealer...
jimmy
Personally, I would have no problems buying a guitar from Costco, if only they were authorized dealers. But as we know they are not. Moreover, I haven't ever seen high-end guitars that were either on display or playable at Costco (only low end ones) and there is no way I am going to purchase a guitar without trying it out personally.
Since we are on the topic of cars.... I'm not trying to turn this into an argument about automobiles and everyone has the right to their opinion, but my father is a mechanic and has been fixing cars for ~40 years and he would tell you that in general, foreign cars (Japanese/European) are more reliable and are a much better value that their american counterparts. I mean you don't have to look much further to see that American automakers are in bad shape right now and losing money.
QuoteWell said Mike... i have been trying to articulate this for a while now...
Thanks! I don't know why I didn't flag this thread to notify me of replies . . . anyway, I've been here for more than 15 years and the lack of innovation, lack of ability to think independently at all, is pretty striking. As long as the U.S. economy capitalizes on innovation, I don't think it will have long term problems. Of course, not spending more than you make (a life-long problem for me, too) would help -- as would some other things. :blush:
It wouldn't surprise me if innovation in China is just around the corner. They are getting scientific research published in American peer-reviewed journals at an increasing rate, just to mention one sign of progress.
There are some very smart people here, but innovation, if its gonna be very broad-based (by which I mean not just isolated occasions) has to be part of the educational system. Here, its not. It also has to be part of the culture. Here it's not. In China today,truth is less important than face. Obebience is more important than creativity & innovation. It goes on and on . . . Maybe it'll change, but I I have doubts it'll be a quick thing. Innovation isn't something mandated at the top, its something that bubbles up from the bottom.
Im hoping COSTCO doesnt ever sell Larrivee's - boy would that cheapen a good brands identity -- this COSTCO thing really cheapens the Martin name in my eyes - you expect to see some of the orient brands like Yamaha or harmony etc -
Quote from: jimmyd on September 07, 2007, 07:13:42 PM
Costco offers a 100% refund on any purchase if you are not satisfied for any reason. Unlike Walmart they are a class organization.
That's just too funny. I've never heard the word class in the same sentence with Cosco before unless it was back to class, or class action.
As for their return policy, Guitar Center/Musicians Friend have it as well. This return policy is important with an online purchase but probably not as important with a guitar you bought after getting a chance to play it for a while.
Biggest problem with a big corporation is that with their buying power they will decide what Martin or Taylor make most of, and ultimately what your options are.
Ted
http://www.laguitarsales.com
Quote from: Tarpman on November 10, 2007, 06:49:31 PM
Biggest problem with a big corporation is that with their buying power they will decide what Martin or Taylor make most of, and ultimately what your options are.
Not Wal-mart and Costco because they are not authorized dealers and have no say in the matter.
Quote from: Tarpman on November 10, 2007, 06:49:31 PM
That's just too funny. I've never heard the word class in the same sentence with Cosco before unless it was back to class, or class action.
As for their return policy, Guitar Center/Musicians Friend have it as well. This return policy is important with an online purchase but probably not as important with a guitar you bought after getting a chance to play it for a while.
Biggest problem with a big corporation is that with their buying power they will decide what Martin or Taylor make most of, and ultimately what your options are.
Ted
http://www.laguitarsales.com
Ted. You're opinion on Costco makes me smile. Just tell me where would you want your kid to work if you had to choose between Costco or Walmart ?
It's uncertain how Costco got those Martins. Martin has no interest in Costo becoming a Martin dealer. There is a notice on the Martin website that addresses that issue. Costco's business model flies in the face of current big retail operations. They treat their employees very well. They have suffered criticism from wall street for their employee pay & benefits policies. Their CEO points out that he wants to maintain an organization that pays people a living wage, that will be viable for decades and not focused on how much money they make by next week. Like other big retailers they pressure manufacturers for low prices. Too bad the retail climate is based on low price. I'm not sure that is good for consumers in the long run. GC, Sam Ash, etc, offer a 45 day moneyback guarantee. Costco offers an unconditional no time limit 100% refund/exchange policy.
here in winnipeg you can get Taylor T5's, 310's 810ce's and Guilds while bulking up on your favorite appetizers . "will that be a Taylor with your 30 lbs of cabbage roll sir or would monsieur prefer a Guild and a case of cheese puffs"
Quote from: jimmyd on November 11, 2007, 11:41:17 AM
Ted. You're opinion on Costco makes me smile. Just tell me where would you want your kid to work if you had to choose between Costco or Walmart ?
It's uncertain how Costco got those Martins. Martin has no interest in Costo becoming a Martin dealer. There is a notice on the Martin website that addresses that issue. Costco's business model flies in the face of current big retail operations. They treat their employees very well. They have suffered criticism from wall street for their employee pay & benefits policies. Their CEO points out that he wants to maintain an organization that pays people a living wage, that will be viable for decades and not focused on how much money they make by next week. Like other big retailers they pressure manufacturers for low prices. Too bad the retail climate is based on low price. I'm not sure that is good for consumers in the long run. GC, Sam Ash, etc, offer a 45 day moneyback guarantee. Costco offers an unconditional no time limit 100% refund/exchange policy.
I agree with you Jimmyd, there are far to many places paying wages that you can't possibly afford to live on. Unless your living with your parents or sharing living expenses with someone. And that job better be very close to where you live or you'll be working the first couple hours everyday just to pay for your gas to get there and back.
But as far as Costco's unconditional refund policy it does not include all purchases. Electronics being one of them.
A year and a half ago I purchased a 20"LCD enhanced definition TV for my RV. This year I found out that in the beginning of 2009 unless I'm hooked up to cable the set is useless because starting then there will no longer be any analog signals to pick up, you will need a HDTV to pick up local broadcasting. When I found that out, I felt like I had been cheated, why would anybody sell a TV that won't work in 3 years, why was this not common knowledge. It was only this summer that I saw notices on TV that the change was going to take effect.
Sorry for ranting but the point is when I checked the return policy out to see if I could return it for a HDTV which by the way are less expensive than what I paid for mine, size comparable, I found out the return policy states:
We guarantee your satisfaction on every product we sell with a full refund. Exceptions: Televisions, projectors, computers, cameras, camcorders, iPOD / MP3 players and cellular phones must be returned within 90 days of purchase for a refund.
I suppose it was my fault for not being informed, but can you really know everything.
I still spend about 7 grand a year there and have returned other items that weren't right so all in all I think it's a great place to shop. I would rather spend a little more money on stuff at Costco than shop at WalMart.
:cheers
FWIW, while they are still showing some Taylors (and Johnsons, for that matter) currently you can't buy a CFM there; @ least for now.
IMHO, I believe that Costco is arguably a better corporate citizen than Walmart (Sams Club). Whether or not that translates to a 'class act' is certainly up for debate.
As something of an old timer myself, I pine for the days of the corner hardware store and local bakery, but that won't bring them back. And I have "issues" (as we like to say in Ann Arbor) with the acres of asphalt these big box stores pave for parking, in destroying the landscape and preventing anyone form walking to their store. I personally don't like shopping in a 100,000 sq ft store. I don't wish to make a day of it; I'd like to get my purchase and get out of there & enjoy the rest of my day. Clearly everybody doesn't share my view on this (or anything else, as far as that goes).
Perhaps this is a bit off-topic since we're really talking about online shopping of quality stringed instruments. Sorry about that.
As far as returning a TV 6 months after you bought it because it won't work 2 years into the future in your particular application doesn't sound horribly unfair to me. The fact is, most of the homes in United States have cable now, so for Costco or any other retailer to offer products that will continue to work in most American homes does not fit my own personal definition of "cheating" the consumer who intends to use it in an RV or other... shall we say *non-standard* applications.
Honestly, I hate defending these guys, but consumers all too often abuse return privileges (again, in my humble opinion).
My enemies list line forms at the left. Take a number, please.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2007, 08:05:25 AM
As something of an old timer myself, I pine for the days of the corner hardware store and local bakery, but that won't bring them back. And I have "issues" (as we like to say in Ann Arbor) with the acres of asphalt these big box stores pave for parking, in destroying the landscape and preventing anyone form walking to their store. I personally don't like shopping in a 100,000 sq ft store. I don't wish to make a day of it; I'd like to get my purchase and get out of there & enjoy the rest of my day.
I can actually walk to Costco, or any other retail facility or restaurant from my home, although you have to do it when the traffic is light. I live on an acre that is fenced for my doggie and very private in the back yard, but also sometimes very noisy with traffic. I can see I-75 from my bedroom window, what a view. I like to think I have the best of both worlds, country setting with easy access to all needs.
Quote from: Queequeg on November 12, 2007, 08:05:25 AM
As far as returning a TV 6 months after you bought it because it won't work 2 years into the future in your particular application doesn't sound horribly unfair to me. The fact is, most of the homes in United States have cable now, so for Costco or any other retailer to offer products that will continue to work in most American homes does not fit my own personal definition of "cheating" the consumer who intends to use it in an RV or other... shall we say *non-standard* applications.
Honestly, I hate defending these guys, but consumers all too often abuse return privileges (again, in my humble opinion).
I did say I was sorry for ranting, and I wouldn't have tried to return it anyway after giving it some thought. After all I would have been trying to return something for a refund to turn around and buy something twice as good for half the cost. Always better to feel cheated than to cheat someone else. I shouldn't have aired my frustration of my lack of knowledge, I should have just pasted their policy and left it at that. And FWIW I agree that there is too much abuse of returns which only results in higher prices in the end.
:cheers
"IMHO, I believe that Costco is arguably a better corporate citizen than Walmart (Sams Club). Whether or not that translates to a 'class act' is certainly up for debate."
Is it Moi or are musicians horribly naive...Costgo better than Walmart LOL yeah and a Big Mac is better for you than a 1/4 pounder.GEEZ. Let debate LOL.
Quote from: zeebee on November 12, 2007, 12:00:33 PM
"IMHO, I believe that Costco is arguably a better corporate citizen than Walmart (Sams Club). Whether or not that translates to a 'class act' is certainly up for debate."
Is it Moi or are musicians horribly naive...Costgo better than Walmart LOL yeah and a Big Mac is better for you than a 1/4 pounder.GEEZ. Let debate LOL.
welcome to the forum, zeebee :bowdown:
Quote from: zeebee on November 12, 2007, 12:00:33 PM
"IMHO, I believe that Costco is arguably a better corporate citizen than Walmart (Sams Club). Whether or not that translates to a 'class act' is certainly up for debate."
Is it Moi or are musicians horribly naive...Costgo better than Walmart LOL yeah and a Big Mac is better for you than a 1/4 pounder.GEEZ. Let debate LOL.
It's you. :tongue:
Does it matter where you buy it? I don't think that the guitar cared where it was going to end up being sold when it was built!
LarryDelux, You do make a good point. It's interesting to ponder how different American music might be if there had never been a Sears & Roebuck.
One difference historically, might be that Sears and Wards brought 'plenty' to people living in relative 'scarcity'. Today, the 'big box' phenomenon seems to bring 'excess' to people living with relative 'superfluity'.
I don't know if there's a right or wrong here, but personally, I consider the overwhelming dominance of national chains rather depressing. "Chains" can pull a great massive weight, but they also bind up and enslave.
Piscator
I don't really know what's right or wrong either, Piscator, I just threw the thought out there for folks to ponder. One thing is for sure. If Costco does not sell them relatively quickly, they will not sell them again. It is probably an overstock from some dealers or ex dealers that they are picking up, so it may be a one time thing anyway. I don't really know. Would I buy one there? Perhaps definitely maybe probably not, almost certainly hard to say for sure I think. :?
Quote from: LarryDelux on November 26, 2007, 10:18:42 PM
Would I buy one there? Perhaps definitely maybe probably not, almost certainly hard to say for sure I think. :?
Another absolutely profound statement. I'm constantly being amazed with this thread! :humour:
:laughin: yep