Question for Fingerstyle Players

[William2]

I was wondering how many fingerstyle players here plant their fourth finger on the face of the instrument. After I stopped playing guitar, I played lute for 20 some years. I became totally immersed in the lute technique. One of the things the renaissance lute player did was to plant the little finger on the instrument. The hand position varied over time. It started out with the thumb under technique and later tutors recommended moving the thumb out from under the fingers. Returning to the guitar, I have found this habit hard to break. In fact, I didn't for a while as some players plant the fourth finger. Looking at some arrangements by jazz fingerstyle players, I find that they sometimes use this fourth finger to pluck a 5 note chord (thumb, index, middle, and annular, pinky). And with the planting technique, I find it impossible to develop a good tremolo. I haven't decided for sure as to whether reduce the 5 note chord, strum it, or get rid of this pinky on the face of the instrument and use the pinky as part of my finger army. So how many fingerstyle players plant or don't plant the fourth finger? I've attached a short piece of a lute player using the thumb under technique and how well it works for double coursed instruments and rapid passage work pieces. In this video, the player is also using an instrument strung with all gut strings. The lowers courses are tuned in octaves and the lower string of the course is a small rope twist called a catline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfrDZOb99dc

[unclrob]

Though I don't consider myself a finger style player I do play barefingered.Sometimes depending the tune I'll rest my pinky on the top,I use my thumb over the neck for some single note runs or as a half bar depending on what tuning I'm in.

[fantex]

I am currently working on my fingerpicking. When I'm not using my ring finger I sometimes find my pinky planted on the e string with my ring finger. After that I try to plant it on the guitar but I think I'd rather have it floating. When I flat pick mandolin or guitar I don't plant anything, I just float.

[B0WIE]

It's considered acceptable in classical and acoustic,from many instructionals I've seen. Eric Skye anchors his pinky.

I don't. I think I started out that way and just switched to anchoring with the arm. I remember that being the most difficult thing for me.

[StringPicker6]

I learned fingerpicking from a Tommy Emmanuel teaching course on that truefire website.  He talks about planting pinkies on the soundboard, and basically said that some do it, and others don't, but he does it.  I decided to plant my pinkie down, and it's just habit now. 

[Queequeg]

I play fingerstyle and I often find myself planting that pinky on the top.
But not always. Depends on what I'm playing.
I never made any overt effort to plant or not to plant.
Likewise, with the fretting hand- sometimes the ball of my thumb is at the center of the neck, while many times I'll reach over and fret the 6th string with it, as unclrob was saying (which, I know is an affront to classical players and their technique).
At this age and to the extent that I am neither entirely satisfied nor dissatisfied with my playing and/or technique, it's simply how I do it and I'm very likely not going to change, while at the same time striving to continue to improve within the confines of what passes for my "technique".

[jpmist]

So how many fingerstyle players plant or don't plant the fourth finger?

Put me in the "nope" column. This is in spite of my guitar hero, Knopfler, being a finger planter, but then James Taylor I think doesn't.

My right hand technique simply evolved that way in part due to a particularly strong sense of rhythm where I couldn't imagine playing with my hand frozen in position. That my forearm is planted to the top bout is sufficient anchoring for my 4 fingers to find the intended strings.

I did a few YouTube vids showing the right hand if anyone is suicidal enough to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nxylj15g9E Just the last 30 seconds is enough to see how much my hand rocks and rolls while picking notes. . . 

[Queequeg]

So how many fingerstyle players plant or don't plant the fourth finger?

I did a few YouTube vids showing the right hand if anyone is suicidal enough to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nxylj15g9E Just the last 30 seconds is enough to see how much my hand rocks and rolls while picking notes. . . 

You have one GoPro mounted to the headstock and another on your head?
Sync with a handslap?

[jpmist]

You have one GoPro mounted to the headstock and another on your head?
Sync with a handslap?

Welp. It was ten years ago but if memory serves, to video the right hand I used an iPod nano 5 that records 720 video which I attached to the upper bout with a ruler and masking tape. It framed it perfectly. The main video could have been anything but iPhone most likely over my shoulder from a mic stand. Then off to iMovie which allows a picture in picture insert. I record both parts at the same time for it to be of any value as it's unlikely I play it exactly the same twice in a row. The sync I eyeballed from the waveforms which I could adjust - so, close enough. Thanks for watching! I still marvel that my first person POV for the left hand never caught on, folks are too used to seeing their guitar teacher's hand from that POV I guess.

BTW I just discovered Knopfler has had a new album out for 4 days and I just now hear about it. Can't wait to slap my CC down for the tracks off his site. . .

[William2]

So how many fingerstyle players plant or don't plant the fourth finger?

Put me in the "nope" column. This is in spite of my guitar hero, Knopfler, being a finger planter, but then James Taylor I think doesn't.

My right hand technique simply evolved that way in part due to a particularly strong sense of rhythm where I couldn't imagine playing with my hand frozen in position. That my forearm is planted to the top bout is sufficient anchoring for my 4 fingers to find the intended strings.

I did a few YouTube vids showing the right hand if anyone is suicidal enough to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nxylj15g9E Just the last 30 seconds is enough to see how much my hand rocks and rolls while picking notes. . . 

I enjoyed your video. Your hand looks very relaxed. And I will say that my own hand position is like yours using a lower wrist position where my thumb attacks the strings from the side of the thumb as opposed to a raised wrist and a thumb attack more toward the tip of the thumb. I will say I can play either way, planted or not planted. But I find my pinky as opposed to being cupped in alignment with the other fingers tends to straighten out like it wants to touch the sound board. I am trying to correct this by pretending I'm a pick player holding a pick and playing chords with my middle, annular and pinky finger. I am aware that T. Emmanuel plays planted. I saw a video where he there were two types of players, planted and non-planted. He Said Chet played planted. True, but when Chet had to play the Recollections of the Alhambra by Tarrega (a tremolo study), he wasn't playing planted. And T. Emmanuel never plays tremolo. Maybe I 'll end up playing planted in the end. I just really like the sound of a 5 note chord where all the notes sound simultaneously as opposed to broken or strummed. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It just depends on what you are playing.

[mike in lytle]

Before I knew better, my right arm pretty clamped the guitar lower bout, then someone somewhere pointed out that dampens the guitar. Now my arm does contact the lower bout, but with no pressure. My hand knows "where it is" by just making light contact with the low E pin with my palm. It isn't an anchor really. Since I don't need to use a lot of left hand muscle for chording, the guitar kind of floats.
A few years ago, after trigger finger surgery, I started using my pinkie so I could do 5 finger stuff. It's pretty spastic, cause that finger is short and wants to be curled up. My warmup is doing 5 finger rolls in various patterns for 10 or 15 minutes. I use the pinkie because "why not?". But I doubt it will ever feel natural.
The lute video was cool. The lute is so small it seems to almost require the pinkie to be an anchor.
Ok, so here is the video I made a couple years ago after we got the Forum VI. The basis of the piece comes from the patterns I started after the surgery. The guitar is in drop D. The spastic pinkie is on display.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rItYUVPIFMI
Mike

[Queequeg]

You have one GoPro mounted to the headstock and another on your head?
Sync with a handslap?

Welp. It was ten years ago but if memory serves, to video the right hand I used an iPod nano 5 that records 720 video which I attached to the upper bout with a ruler and masking tape. It framed it perfectly. The main video could have been anything but iPhone most likely over my shoulder from a mic stand. Then off to iMovie which allows a picture in picture insert. I record both parts at the same time for it to be of any value as it's unlikely I play it exactly the same twice in a row. The sync I eyeballed from the waveforms which I could adjust - so, close enough. Thanks for watching! I still marvel that my first person POV for the left hand never caught on, folks are too used to seeing their guitar teacher's hand from that POV I guess.

BTW I just discovered Knopfler has had a new album out for 4 days and I just now hear about it. Can't wait to slap my CC down for the tracks off his site. . .

Thanks for the recording debriefing. 
Also for the heads-up on a new Mark Knopfler release. He's "da bomb" (as folks half my age say).

[William2]

Before I knew better, my right arm pretty clamped the guitar lower bout, then someone somewhere pointed out that dampens the guitar. Now my arm does contact the lower bout, but with no pressure. My hand knows "where it is" by just making light contact with the low E pin with my palm. It isn't an anchor really. Since I don't need to use a lot of left hand muscle for chording, the guitar kind of floats.
A few years ago, after trigger finger surgery, I started using my pinkie so I could do 5 finger stuff. It's pretty spastic, cause that finger is short and wants to be curled up. My warmup is doing 5 finger rolls in various patterns for 10 or 15 minutes. I use the pinkie because "why not?". But I doubt it will ever feel natural.
The lute video was cool. The lute is so small it seems to almost require the pinkie to be an anchor.
Ok, so here is the video I made a couple years ago after we got the Forum VI. The basis of the piece comes from the patterns I started after the surgery. The guitar is in drop D. The spastic pinkie is on display.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rItYUVPIFMI
Mike

I enjoyed that video and like your hand posture, it looks relaxed and natural. I never thought about using the pinky in an arpeggio pattern and will have to give this a try. I think the pinky might aways sound a little weak compared to the other fingers but is maybe not noticeable on slower plucked chords. I have watched a couple of young classical guitarists go from the first to the fifth string on arpeggios going Annular, middle, index, index, thumb. (AMIIP) on the Villa Lobos Etude #2 sliding the index across the third to the fourth string. It sounded very fast and even. The lute due to its pear shape benefits from the pinky holding it in place. The typical renaissance lute had a scale length of 24 inches and longer. My baroque lute with 24 strings had a scale length of 28 inches. I also warmup with some arpeggio exercises.

[mike in lytle]

I never thought about using the pinky in an arpeggio pattern and will have to give this a try.

Honestly, I did not know what an arpeggio is until I looked it up. Now I am very pleased with myself.
I shall try to play that piece faster. Sure to be hopeless.
Mike

[Silence Dogood]

Do I "plant"?  I'll let you decide. 

[Silence Dogood]

Thanks for the recording debriefing. 
Also for the heads-up on a new Mark Knopfler release. He's "da bomb" (as folks half my age say).

I listened to some of the new Knopfler record (I still call them records) this week.  His guitar tones are simply amazing. 

[Queequeg]

I listened to some of the new Knopfler record (I still call them records) this week.  His guitar tones are simply amazing. 
Right, SD.

I listened to it yesterday and a bit of it again this morning.
It's a kinder, gentler Knopfler (which has been a gradual trend for him over many years now) so they're mostly ballads but they're lovely ballads.

[Silence Dogood]

I listened to it yesterday and a bit of it again this morning.
It's a kinder, gentler Knopfler (which has been a gradual trend for him over many years now) so they're mostly ballads but they're lovely ballads.

Back in the day I had the really famous "Brothers In Arms" record, but "Ragpicker's Dream" is the only solo CD of Knopler's I've ever bought.  Most of my CD collection has disappeared over time but I really liked that one.  I need to pull it up online and give it a listen again.  I've not kept up with Knopler's career but have seen him lots on YT, etc, over the years.  His tone is pretty fascinating to me.  Not sure how much sense this will make, but many players just "look cool" when they play, but Knopler's physical style is so awkward that it looks a bit unorthodox (to me) when he plays.  But, man, does it sound great. 

[Queequeg]

Well, he's older now   and he sits in a chair with his strat these days.
Saw him once many years ago when he was suffering with sciatica but he played his heart out.
Re: my comments on the ballads, the new title cut has a hint of the old Dire Strait days of yore.
NOTE: with apologies to William for the thread hijack here.

[jpmist]

I enjoyed your video. Your hand looks very relaxed. And I will say that my own hand position is like yours using a lower wrist position where my thumb attacks the strings from the side of the thumb as opposed to a raised wrist and a thumb attack more toward the tip of the thumb. I will say I can play either way, planted or not planted. But I find my pinky as opposed to being cupped in alignment with the other fingers tends to straighten out like it wants to touch the sound board.

Thanks! I'm at a disadvantage as far as planting, an early childhood injury with a glass paneled door cut some nerves and tendons in my right hand so the pinky stays straight and I don't have 100% use of finger #4. Didn't stop me from taking piano lessons back then and I can do some 4 finger chording at times. And I agree that neither is wrong and both add value in the technique toolbox.